My audiologist wore headphones and i could see her lips because she would say something every now and again through my headphones such as changing the test from words to sentences. I had my eyes closed so i could not see her lips as i wanted to ensure i could hear everything through the headphones alone. The recorded voice was the test voice. I am going to get fitted and cannot change audio as i am paying $1500 for the service fee (3 yr service). I was given the option of $300 h/r which seems a bit much.
They did in Albany south of Perth which was whale hunting territory many moons ago. Thanks again for the articles
I will be having REM as i had watched Dr Cliff Olson and had to search for a clinic who conducted this test. There are not many clinics around who do REM. Yes, i am hoping my audio is skilled at fitting although she may not have fitted anybody yet wit the Starkey livio edge custom model as i mentioned telecoil and she was unaware that it does not exist for ITC and half shell. I pointed out that it only exists for Full Shell and we checked her computer to see that i was right. I am paying $1500 for a 3 yr unlimited service plan so it will be hard to change audio once i pay. It was either this plan or pay $300 and hour for service. Wish me luck 
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I do. All the best. Keep us posted!
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I showed the audio my old audiogram from 30 yrs ago and i ask to compare it with my new audiogram. The left ear had dropped significantly. I will ask her to email me the audiogram copy when i start the trial. I am 52 now and feel i may have left it for too long as i have had moderate hearing loss since i was a child and now it seems severe/profound but hopefully it is not too late. I can see you have had a lot of experience with audiologists. I will keep reading your posts as they are informative and helps me make better decisions.
It’s not too late. When you get your new aids you will most likely hear many new sounds. They may sound like gibberish or foreign sounds. Give your brain a chance to relearn these sounds and turn them into speech, be patient.
The posts from Neville are exactly what you need, a pro with years of experience.
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Will do, thanks. It’s something i have never experienced before having normal or near normal sounds ans i am 52 yrs old. I do not know what to expect. Yes, i will be eagerly absorbing sounds and going shopping and walking around and listening to everything i can on youtube. Brain retraining i had no idea existed and should have done something about it 30 years ago and ignored my ENT specialist telling me there is nothing i can do for my type of hearing loss. Neville gave me his thoughts and was exactly what i needed for keeping my mind relaxed in the coming weeks before i start the trial. Somehow i feel i may need a cochlear implant but not sure just yet.
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This doesn’t matter that much actually - when REM fitted, almost all brands behave the same (Widex might be problematic). So fitter doesn’t need to know the aid in their soul to be able to give you great first fit. 
Another thing, those aids all have same stuff for options, pool is limited and how they work is known, difference is how they call it, and if specific model has option X or not.
So, if they did their training properly and actually understand audiology and sounds, then again, it doesn’t matter which aids are on the table. Professional knows how to work with any (proper aids from major manufacturers).
About brain training.
I don’t know how long your trial is, but keep in mind that if you start working on your training, you’ll see incremental results in monthly steps, not just during a month or two of trial.
Of course, highest jump will be now with new/first aids, but brain needs time to adapt and (re)learn to use those sounds, and you just need to keep pushing it to evolve.
Like, when I started my trial, closed domes/molds were horrible from the comprehension point, and I could stand only open ones (got best results that way). A week ago I went on molds, in meantime I was gradually increasing how closed thins were by changing them and redoing REM with my fitter every few months.
And I definitely can rely more on my bad ear now than I could when this all restarted, so a year ago.
Even though I was happy to ‘hear something and comprehend something’ back then when I got new aids, I couldn’t hold phone conversations with that ear alone. Now it’s a struggle but doable if needed.
So if you notice significant improvement immediately, that’s good and just keep working.
To me, direct audio streaming (youtube from phone or tv) was a game changer. I spend several hours a day streaming, some things while I do something else, but some I listen while focused. I even stream only to my bad ear for some German learning, to really focus on what’s being said and reading while it’s being said. Heavy duty work 
Neville recommends repeating out loud afterwards but I’m too lazy for that. Idea is that if you repeat, you’ll help your brain develop pathways faster.
That works, I had therapy back then when I lost my hearing, to the point that I didn’t get HA since therapy alone was enough to keep my brain working on that side for a year or so. Main reason for going HA route was sound orientation and being lazy to go to therapies, plus my therapist had major accident and was unable to work, then I moved to Germany.
What I didn’t know back then is how lazy brain really is if you don’t give it eanough stimulation, and in my case wearing HA alone wasn’t enough, that I see now. Since my good ear is normal hearing, it took all load and despite HA in bad ear, stimulation just wasn’t enough.
Brain wants to do things with least effort. So, streaming with these new aids really get this engine moving
I started with marvel in April last year I think, then switched fitters to someone who does REM and then paradise came out so I switched to that, so basically I had like 5 months of trialling - took me just a week to decide for paradises, but fitter insisted that we wait with payment for insurances response, so I paid them in January. Tehnically, all things combined, I had 8 months of trial before paying, but ok, that’s because I found some ‘crazy’ fitter 
I wore some widex before which didn’t work useful anymore for me, I mostly stopped wearing them because it was better without them. What I didn’t know is that my hearing got a bit worse, since I didn’t do check ups.
Also, my latest checkup (last month) shows a bit worse audiogram than previously, but my comprehension was never better. Figures
Sound directly in ear is single best thing you can get from HA
Even if you need intermediary devices to make sound come to ear, but skipping the air makes it so much more useful and understandable
Good luck and keep us posted!
You might open your own topic even?
Yesterday we entered full lockdown in my city. I cannot go to my audiologist appointment until the next couple of weeks since they are hard to get a booking too.
I realise i must be an expert at lipreading as i see people talking with masks on but wonder how on earth the other person can possibly understand what is being said with the cloth covering the other persons mouth? Really amazing!
Yes it was a worry when i know how much you mentioned about finding many different fitters before you could settle on a good fitter. I thought Oh No, if the audio doesn’t know much about the Starkey custom ITC then how will she know how to fit/adjust it properly. So REM will be vital for a good fitting i can understand and glad this confirms that the fitting should go well.
As i am receiving Starkey Livio Edge ITC it seems to be a different setup than BTE as there is no tubing or outer mould. Maybe this will be easier to fit than BTE?
Currently i only have a hearing amplifier with a silicone dome. When i turned the volume on full the feedback was dreadful although i had several domes to choose and the largest on stopped the feedback. They can be painful to wear all day so i limit using them to 4 hrs daily.
The trial with the Starkey Livio Edge ITC will go for 30 days although it is hard to know what to expect as i don’t know what real sound is supposed to sound like? Both my ears were moderate hearing loss from birth and i never wore hearing aids before. I was given one BTE for school and this ended up in my cupboard drawer for 46 yrs since i was 6 years old. When i moved house recently i found it and tried it on. It was analog and sounded like a small motor running.
Later in my early 20’s i tried a CIC from a dispenser and this was no help at all since it was too small and i have bilateral hearing loss. Boy did i save hard for that $1200 that was flushed down the toilet. I then went to an ENT who had a small machine on a table opposite me for the audiogram test which was a tonal test with press button. I am told here is no hope with my hearing loss. Oh well i thought…i will just to forget about it and press on with life.
Yes i plan on watching youtube and listening to many different peoples tone of voice to retrain my brain. I tried learning French last few years ago as i like to travel in Europe and UK although the way the French force the tongue is strange to an Australian But i plan on learning again once i can hear better. As odd as it seems i learn best from French comics such as TinTin as language books can be kind of dry and boring. I got this trait from my grandfather who read Dandy/Beano comics in Scotland.
About Nevilles method. Reciting sounds aloud seems good because it also helps our speech if one has a speech impediment. Nobody has ever told me that i had any speech problem. I was told by a speech therapist that i miss some consonents in my speech so by brain retraing i may need to start saying words out loud too. It does seem like learning a new language even though it seems strange to speak aloud in the native tongue. Well the funny thing is that when we had VHS cassettes many years ago i had to rewind the tape over and over to grasp what was being said. Like beating a dead horse over and over. Even songs on the radio i made up my own lyrics on the radio and they sounded better than the real lyrics once i read the lyrics in later years from google.
I will try the Starkey microphone clip so it can sit next to the tv and pipe the sound by bluetooth directly to the ears. I am reluctant piping sound directly to the ears as i used to see my dad wear headphones while watching late night marathon episodes of John Wayne/Clint East wood cowboy shows from the US and he went profoundly deaf at 75!
I do read everyones post and thanks for the valuable contribution. Hearing loss has been a very personal thing all my life. (A BIG secret or skeleton in the closet) that i never shared with anyone about since i never wanted to be treated any differently than my peers at school or in any work situation from birth to adulthood.
Reading motivational books from Tony Robbins, inspirational books and speeches by Arnold Swarzenegger, biographies/autobiographies…all these books told me that every human being has faced huge challenges in their life. This was a wake up call and i set about making big changes to my life that i have mostly overcome. Still got a long way to go and it is good to hear about other members here who have overcome and still learning to overcome their hearing loss challenge
PS i wish i paid attention in typing class. The hunt and peck typing style is a pain the butt 
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While waiting for a pair of hearing aids to be fitted for the first time since birth, this past month of trying out hearing amplifiers has brought sounds i have not heard for over 46 years.
Driving car - ticking sound when i put indicator on. Also gravel type sound from the road (maybe car tyres rolling on the road makes a noise, very strange when the road is smooth! Possibly wind noise even though the windows are up. I tried closing all the electric buttons from the windows and roof top opener although they were already fully up. I wind the window down
while driving along the beach coast. I hear voices as i drive past surfies and cafes, no way! They are 5 metres away but i swear i did hear them.
Tap - running water for first time, amazing! I swapped the plug amplifiers to a pair of Resound amplifiers and turned them to full volume. To my disbelief i could hear water gurgle down the drain and the neighbours tv.
There is a tuner inside the Resound amplifiers which i had to turn down with a screwdriver as sounds like cutlery was very loud and sharp and i had to run when flushing the toilet as it was very sharp. The sounds are now deeper and warm with the lower frequency. Toilet flushes sound deep and dull. But words still make no sense with hearing amplifiers on at full volume. The tv sounds very loud at 30 knots volume but i cannot understand a word. I switch channels to see if it is better but no luck here either.
I went shopping and got confused with the new sounds. A guy is talking loud as i am approaching a cafe. Just his loud voice but i don’t know where he is?
The self checkout machine made a beeping noise when i swiped the groceries. Outside i hear a sharp squeek. Ah, so that’s what a small BIRD sounds like!! Magpies and crows i could always kind of hear so nothing new here.
At home i hear the fridge running and the airconditioner is way too loud. I turned the tv on and the aircon had to be turned off. First thought…How does anyone watch tv with the aircon on in the background is beyond belief! Microwave makes a sharp beeping sound! I quickly turn it off as it makes too many beeps when its finished.
It has started raining. I can hear the rain hitting the roof! Wow! I open the slider door and it is loud rain. What a joy to hear rain for the first time.
I hear footsteps. I quickly turn around to see what this is all about. My own footsteps, lol
Lying down feeling exhausted from all these new sounds i can actually hear my own breathing. No way that is impossible you may say but it is true folks!
Some people in the past told me they can hear leaves rattling in the wind? Some say they can hear rain hit the paving. This i have not yet experienced. Some say they can hear a cat meow. This i can only laugh!
I am sure i will hear very differently with hearing aids which i cannot wait to try.
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Not just when you have speech impediment but for general training of the brain. I think Neville and I discussed that in my topic about LACE training therapy, try to dig that up
When I did my therapy in person, repeating what I’ve heard was easy way for therapist to confirm the correctness. Although, his English was worse than mine and sometimes he concluded that I didn’t heard something right because I pronounce things differently Therapy was in Croatian, but he was reading me books/reports about hiking which had foreign names of places and people
But, when you have to repeat, your brain focuses more, gives that ‘more juice’ as opposed to passive listening or focused listening. Since it concludes that it obviously matters more to you, so it better be doing better job.
Like, if you just listen something, like a list of items, and then have to repeat it 2 minutes later, you’d suck.
If you do visualisations while listening, and then repeating 2 minutes later, you’ll be much much better.
If you think about what you’ve listening, take it down, close your notes and then repeat, you’d be even better.
When we intentionally listen and utilise other means (writing, repeating), our brain makes better pathways, which as a consequence has that your brain gets better at deciphering certain sound sequences.
For those headphones I assume he adjusted volume on his own. Also, increasing the volume might be a consequence of loss that already happened, but also, could cause the further loss.
Good thing about aids is that they’re SAFE when fitted by proper fitter.
So, they increase volume only for frequencies you need (unlike headphones which can only increase everything, and consequently if you have high frequency loss, you might damage low frequency cells with too much volume over time).
Also, there are bulit in protections from sudden loud sounds, in short, if you wear closed domes/molds with good seal, nothing louder than I think 85db can even enter your head
HAs are amplifiers, but are not headphones
And direct streaming just means that you transfer sound between two devices without loss through the air, like distance between speakers and mics on aids or external mics.
Whenever sound travels through the air, there’s loss in sound quality. If you can avoid that, or reduce the distance - do it.
I’m don’t know how starkey enables listening TV, and how this microphone clip works. I mean, when you say external mic and bluetooth I’m a bit confused, because I’m not sure what you mean.
Like, external mic can be seated in front of some speakers, and then mic transfers via BT to your aids. However, if you can avoid this, do. Since you have ‘sound over air’ situation.
If you have a way that sound is only transfered via wires and BT/other wireless connections, use that. Like, for phonak and TV there’s device called TV connector, you plug it on your optical output on tv, and it utilises some wifi protocol to transfer sound, and you get it directly in your aids. Pure awesomeness
That too will get better with practice. I never did typing classes and started with hunt and peck when I got my first computer, that’s around 23 years now (end of primary school). A lot of forum hours later, I think I’ve started typing without looking at the keyboard in like 3-4 years (end of high school)?
Few years later I’ve switched to US keyboard layout, because [] and {} are faster to type on it, and I went to get CS degree
Now I swap between DE and US layout depending on what I type.
But yeah, literal years of typing are invested there
I can vouch for that, they indeed meow, I have two 
For me, fun part of rediscovering new aids was using external microphone (roger pen/select) and put it under my cat’s nose to hear them breathing and purring. So loud
Mind you, I have low frequency loss.
Oh and I decided that I don’t want to hear all those sounds after I’ve heard some of them, like, fridge brumming and such, so I had that readjusted. I prefer quietness
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I will be fitted with new hearing aids soon and wondering why people still need accessories for picking up clarity of speech at distances of > 2 metres such as tv or voices?
So the sound is perceived as being loud when wearing hearing aids and watching tv but there is still no clarity or word understanding? Is this common for most HOH folks?
Does the majority of hearing aid wearers need accessories to work with their hearing aids?
I have cheap hearing amplifier plugs that cost $100 and i can understand voices up to 1 metre in my good ear although i am obtaining hearing aids in order to get much better clarity with tv and voices at longer distances.
Does this mean that the latest hearing aids can only get word recognition from voices or TV up to 1 to 2 metres distance? It seems to me that hearing aids will amplify sound but is causing problems with clarity that normal hearing persons do not have trouble with.
I can understand these accessories may be of great assist for profound hearing loss although i don’t understand why they would be needed for moderate or severe hearing loss? This tells me that hearing aids still do not work over 2-3 metres distances? Please correct me if i am wrong?
Are modern hearing aids still not effective for listening to TV at normal distance say 3-4 metres? Or talking at a distance of 3-4 metres?
I was hoping i could rely on my hearing aids alone when talking at a distance or watching tv!
If the hearing aids don’t correct my hearing then i would be needing the Starkey mini remote or full size remote microphone i guess i am wanting to take this with me everywhere. To clip on a friend when i go fishing so i can hear what this friend is saying in the distance. Also, when i visit my parents house or other friends house and we sometimes watch a bit of tv. i can place the mini microphone next to the tv. This is bluetooth to the hearing aids and will be sound over air is what you call it.
I gather the wifi method with a tv connector connected with cables to the tv would be better for sound quality as it pipes sound directly from the tv to the hearing aids over wifi. Starkey does have a TV streamer which would be the same as a TV connector.
I like the idea of the mini microphone being mobile so it can be used in the car as well as sometimes when someone is sitting in the backseat and i can clip this on the person.
Also it can be good at a cafe or at say a university and clip on the lecturers shirt. But at home i would be better with a wifi tv streamer that plugs into the tv as it will have better clarity than sound over the air. I can understand now.
I don’t know if anybody here has experience with the starkey remote microphone clips for tv use or left on a table at a cafe or perhaps clipped to a friends shirt in the car?
It has been more than 46 years since i have seen a hearing aid besides a cic and coming here now in 2021 i am very surprised that accessories are needed.
This TV streamer would need cables to be plugged into the back of the TV.
SNR Signal to Noise Ratio.
Check it out.
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I think you need to try your HAs before getting too concerned about accessories… every one is different.
I had to use subtitles/closed captions until I got my first HAs 10 days ago. Now I can hear the tv - several meters away- and understand it without captions. It is now at a “normal volume” according to my wife
No accessories required. That’s me - maybe not you. Wait and see how you go?
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Yes i understand about background noise and i should have asked why accessories are still needed in a quite background? I guess many HOH are watching tv with background noise such as aircon and perhaps other people talking nearby.
Yes i will be trialling hearing aids very soon. Your low frequencies are mild and wonder if that is the reason you don’t need accessories for watching tv? The high frequencies i can understand you probably would need accessories. I guess everyone if different but i am pleased to know from your experience that you can watch tv without captions/subtitles from a few metres away! That’s awesome and hoping to get a similar result.
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That’s why you need a fitter who follows best practices and can measure stuff and explain to you how your loss really looks like, what aids can and cannot do, if external mics can or cannot help and so on.
In short, again, tonal audiogram says that you have frequency loss, what type, how severe and might imply if there are dead regions.
WRS, word recognition score, tell us what we can expect from aids.
SNR with quicksin or similar tests tell us what are our needs in speech babble noise.
My working theory is that those from WRS lower than 70/80 are probably screwed up, because they hear too good for CI, but too bad for HA.
No HA in the world can repair your cochlea, and damaged cochlea and especially dead reagions in it is what distorts sound, brain interprets it, and you get your WRS. The more damage there is, the clearer signal you need in order for your brain to have better chances in deciphering that.
If your SNR is high that means that your brain is really struggling in any noise, and ideally you’d do best with full noise cancellation of any noise and disturbance of the sound. That being said, many youtubers have bad sound quality, because they use wrong mics and don’t have acoustically prepared rooms, so mics pick up everything, and that gets into the mix soup for your brain to decipher. Add to that all noises between your speakers and you, and you’re asking your brain to do some heavy lifting.
SNR 2-4 is ‘you struggle but aids should suffice’, ‘5-10’ usually means ‘aids won’t be enough, try with external mic’, higher than that means ‘you’re screwed’. Guess where I stand if mics won’t help me to get clear signal
HAs just bring signal, louder, in front of your eardrum. And tries to clear it up, however, it isn’t perfect. Mics do the same, with an advantage of shortening the distance between sound you want to hear and your ears effectively.
HAs mics indeed are weaker by distance of sound source. I think 4m at 65db could be already tricky, even in quiet (because quiet isn’t sound booth), but I forgot the exact number for distance, I think 6-8m means probably unusable for many people. You might heard that something is said, but not get enough information to comprehend what is being said. That’s why speaking from other room just doesn’t work, no matter if you wear HAs or not, but it seems that many spouses expect that when you wear HA you can magically hear them from another room when they speak in normal voice.
When tests if HAs are fitted properly are done, it’s on 1m distance and 65db source. 65db is normal speech loudness.
That’s property of the sound - it losses power over distance.
That being said, why we wear aids in the first place?
So that we don’t have to suffer through listening situation (so hard).
Why use mics and other stuff? So that we further reduce that suffering.
Normal hearing people don’t have to focus on hearing, they don’t get fatigue because they try to understand what’s being said.
I asked my husband why he likes to listen stuff somewhat louder than I do, and his answer got me thinking. He said that he doesn’t want to think about listening, he just wants to hear it.
That and the fact that my ear is really bad, got me to 2 aids and mics, and struggle to comprehend is real, however, without them, so only one aid - I don’t struggle, I just give up.
So, no, it definitely isn’t necessary to use any aid, if you don’t have issues with your hearing loss.
Nor you need accesories, if aids work great for you.
However, aids have limits, and SNR the top tech provide in ideal environments are I think at most 7?
Your daily environment isn’t ideal environment.
And your brain may or may not cope well with additional help that aids bring, that mic/tv connector bring…
Best thing you can do is - try and compare.
Try aids, if they work great - awesome, you’re done.
If some situations are better but you still struggle, try accessories, if they work great - awesome, you’re done.
If they help a bit, but not completely (mind you, no aids beside CI in the world can repair your cochlea and improve your WRS from 50s into 90s), then you have to decide if they’re worth the money for what you get or not.
Also, if without mics you’re screwed, but with mics you work fine, I’d suggest going with cheaper tier aids and external mics, since mics will do the heavy lifting alone anyway, so why pay for that 5 snr boost from aids if you don’t see benefit and you need 8 which mic provides, for example.
But, my takeaway from this world is that if I can pay, I’ll use any accessory that makes me strain a bit less. Becaue that means that I can be not exhausted at the end of the day, or enjoy longer dinner evenings and be engaged.
Every bit counts.
If you’re lucky and you need ‘just’ HAs, by all means, go for it. It definitely happens.
However, bunch of folks here on forum use accessories, my guess is probably since most of us came here because we were so frustrated with our losses, and had to dig more and more, and help ourselves with informations and so on. So it’ definitely a biased community
That being said, if you realise you enjoy streaming youtube from your phone, just keep in mind that with tv connectors you can get the same for your TV.
I didn’t know that (both) until last year and it was really a gamechanger for me.
And I use my mic for video calls on speakerphone, since that sound is really distorted, even if I’m half a meter away, with HAs alone is just hard (yes 2 aids and 1 normal hearing ear). WIth mic I don’t have to even look at people talking, you know, like normal hearing people can do Not to mention that I can go in the kitchen and still hear them talking loud and clear
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With your hearing loss, you’re only getting about 6% of speech cues at a soft conversational level. Yes, you are probably a fantastic lip reader.
What a lovely list of new sounds you’ve described. It made me sit and listen to the soft sounds in my enviroment. I can hear the radio on in the kitchen, the chirp of birds outside of my window, the sound of traffic going by on the street outside. The world really isn’t very quiet.
You’re not wrong. Others are correct about hearing aids only being able to boost signal to noise ratio so much, but also sound degrades very quickly over distance. Within 2 meters is the optimal listening distance for hearing aids. This doesn’t mean you won’t be able to hear things that are further away, but if you can stream it directly into the hearing aids and eliminate the distance problem it will be a much clearer sound. Knowing this beforehand is valuable. Planning to make good use of remote microphone technology is valuable. Clipping it to your friend when you are fishing is a great idea.
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While the average upper range of human hearing is about ~20kHz, the upper range for cats is 80 kHz (even though they hear the low frequencies almost as well as we do). I wonder what they are listening to all the time. Ghosts and bugs and fluorescent lights maybe.
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If I ever manage to speak their language properly, I’ll surely ask them and forward the answer
Plus, you probably wanted to say ‘upper range of teen hearing’
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