Oticon More adds disposable battery model and MyMusic program

Hearing Aids
#222

I personally don’t think there’s an additive double-dipping effect per se. The compression in hearing aids is there to compensate for the varying degree of loudness perception due the hearing loss. You can’t hear a sound at softer volumes below a threshold volume due to your hearing loss, but if that sound gets loud enough, you can hear it OK. So you need a certain gain amplification to get past the threshold volume where you recognize that there is a sound, but if that sound gets really loud, that same amount of gain at the softer level can just be too loud for you tolerate at the louder level. So if anything, the compression at the louder input range is an attempt to “linearize” your hearing to help make it more closely resemble the normal (shall we say more linear?) hearing.

If you have light to moderate hearing loss, there’s enough dynamic range in your hearing for compression to help make the sound volumes seem more linear. But with severe to profound loss, the hearing threshold volume is so high that the dynamic ranges get squished to almost nothing, so linearization is much harder to achieve.

Yes, you can reduce compression to below 2 in music program if you can, to help get more dynamic out of the sounds. But depending on your hearing loss, it’s not always possible. The very narrow dynamic range of a severe to profound hearing loss has very little to no room for you fit the expanded (minimized) compression in the first place.

What musicians do to impart their own dynamics to music (whether they try to linearize it or expand it or compress it in their own way) is really a separate and different thing from what HAs try to do with compression to help restore the perception of linear hearing for the patient.

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#223

@Volusiano: Well, so much for that SpudHypothis®️! I guess I’ll have to make another ciphering trip to the OH to get a different angle on the problem. Just to be clear on why I keep coming back to this: I’m still trying to understand why the MyMusic program leaves me so cold, and what the engineers at Oticon may have done to achieve that surprising result.

I can do that in a less vocal way, however … we can move on!

[Addendum: I just listened to one of my very favourite instrumental recordings that I’ve been playing for pretty well all the years since my hearing injury, and as the passing years have added their toll.

It’s still very beautiful through VAC+, and even through the T-coil program. But it’s wild, woolly, and unbecoming through MyMusic, so the jury’s back from the appeal.

Still fail.

Another observation: If there are about 10k members on this site, Oticon must have a very small market share of musicians, judging from the small handful of us participating actively in this thread!:confused:]

#224

I went back to the Oticon whitepaper on MyMusic to spend more time reading it. Below are some of the salient points I get out of it.

  1. Compression is minimized. This is consistent with my observation when I compared the OPN S original Music program and the More MyMusic Gain Controls table for my own hearing loss. I think I made this observation in one of the previous posts (post 201 in my reply to @flashb1024.

Below is an excerpt in the whitepaper that talks about this. So at least they seem to have gone in the right direction with this by trying to minimize compression. So if one finds fault with how MyMusic sounds, it’s probably not because of high compression, but it may be something else.

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  1. The screenshot below shows the difference in outputs between the legacy music program vs MyMusic. It looks like they boost the lows and the very highs in MyMusic, but compared to the legacy program, the gain in their mids seem to be not as loud as the legacy music program. I wonder if this is what causes MyMusic to fall flat and not well received by some because its gain is weaker in the all important mid range.

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  1. It looks like they decided to add colorations that you typically get from an acoustical listening room (like in a studio) for the streamed music content. Below is the exact verbage for it.

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#225

@Volusiano: It’s late here now - past bed time, so this post will be mercifully brief:

  1. I feel embarrassed that I have said so much yet have not gone back to do the necessary homework, as you have. Thanks for setting up a better example for me to follow.
  2. I think the combination of their funny gain application, combined with room conditions that may not be appropriate for the particular music we are listening to via streaming may explain my reaction, in part.
  3. I still have to figure out what’s wrong with the live music listening, just for the sake of interest. Since I’m not an engineer, this could take some time.

Maybe I should just sit on MyMusic and chill for a bit, assuming that Oticon engineers will listen to our input and tweak the parameters of the new app. All I can say is that - when I was still an active studio musician - producers and engineers were fastidious in ensuring that you could hear the air in the room. The “direct to disk” sound was eschewed, because it sounded too sterile. Perhaps the Oticon engineers have forgotten about this aspect, or have left the studio engineers out of the development loop for MyMusic (which would be a mistake).

@Volusiano has shown the error of my ways in assuming that “double-dipping” of gain and compression adjustments has spawned the off-kilter sounds I get listening through MyMusic, but could it be that Oticon’s “secret sauce” on top of EM Studios’ barbecue is just too much of a good thing?

I’ll cipher on that one for a spell, too. [ As my dear, departed Aunt Lena used to say; "The path to Ned’s OH is beat bare by the wisdoms his mind ciphers on.]

Thanks V. G’nite.

#226

I think Oticon’s cardinal sin in this whole affair is to get rid of the legacy Music program altogether in the More and replaced it with MyMusic. They’re too arrogant that they must have gotten it right with MyMusic that they didn’t leave any other option on the table.

I think folks like yourself and Flash and Chuck and all other More owners ought to let your HCPs know and give feedback to Oticon that you would like to get the legacy Music program back. There’s no reason why both of them can’t coexist, unless Oticon is afraid of causing confusion on what the differences between them are. After all, if they claim that they’ve improved the legacy Music program with MyMusic, then people may wonder why the legacy Music program still needs to be around to confuse people with 2 music programs.

2 Likes
#227

@Volusiano: I think you’re correct, except that I don’t like the label “arrogant”. I think they’ve made a significant error, but - due to what?

I suspect that it’s because they:

  1. Got caught up in the theory of capturing room dynamics to the exclusion of the practical knowledge that recording engineers in various genres could have contributed;
  2. Focussed too much on recorded media and, (IMO, and the opinions of a few others, apparently) they didn’t even get that right;
  3. Failed to give musicians and music lovers listening via the air (ie., live instruments or transducers) a viable tool for reproducing the authentic character of music presented by more traditional transmission chains;
  4. Failed to give themselves an “out” if the MyMusic program was received less than enthusiastically. (I prefer to label this as “overconfidence” or "smugness ". Arrogance is too pejorative for my liking.)

Whatever their reasons for doing so, Oticon engineers seem to have invented “smoke and mirrors for the ears”.

#228

Just a possible answer, my perspective, I believe the MYMusic program was designed for us average hearing loss individuals that don’t have any or almost no music background. And are hoping for a little better experience with music. So I understand the ones that are musically experienced and want a real music program.

#229

@cvkemp: Chuck, that would explain the funny equalization and "room effect ", but why would they release something with a lot of distortion?

I know you didn’t grow up around a lot of music, and perhaps you think that musicians hear things differently. To a certain extent, maybe we do. I can’t speak for the classical crowd, but if you’ve ever gone to a loud concert or played on stage with a loudish band, you’ll know that you can literally feel the air moving around you, in time with the music. It’s almost like being in a jacuzzi, only much subtler.

And perhaps musicians or music lovers can pick up on subtler harmonies or effects or sour notes than non-musicians. But, when it comes to the sound of the music - pure versus distorted - I don’t think even inexperienced listeners would fail to detect distorted sound reproduction.

That’s the aspect of your explanation that I’m finding it difficult to buy into, Chuck.

#230

I can say anything to that seeing I haven’t gotten my aids updated, there are two at my church that have More aids and they say the MyMusic program helps them a lot.

#231

I think you’re being too kind to Oticon for just saying that “they’ve made a significant error”. The reason I chose the word arrogant is because in the whitepaper, they stressed the point of putting a lot of work into MyMusic and even likened their work on MyMusic to creating a rationale for speech (see the excerpt below from their whitepaper). They boasted how big of a difference they made to MyMusic for the better that 72% of people in their internal tests preferred MyMusic over the legacy music program.

I guess they forgot to ask the other 28% why they didn’t like MyMusic as much, and whether those 28% would have preferred to keep the legacy music program around or not. I bet those 28% would have said yes, only if Oticon had asked. Even if Oticon did ask, then chose to get rid of the legacy music program anyway, neither scenario looks good for Oticon.

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#232

@Volusiano: Okay, V. It’s hard to argue against the evidence. I’ll concede this point to you, then! :joy:

#233

I would say that they need to develop an uncolored music program that reproduces music as linearly as possible and then perhaps add a tool (app) that will give the user the ability to mix the sound as they want with built-in presets that will give users add’l bass, etc, that they can select to suit their taste. Perhaps, by music type!

I would be interested in knowing who they tested the program on; what their backgrounds were, etc. It would tell you who they perceive to be their target market for the aids and specifically, the MyMusic program. My feeling is that they want to dumb down control of the aids as much as possible to insure that that they fit the most people with the least possible hassle.

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#234

This is in line with what @cvkemp Chuck said, then. I can scarcely believe that you guys may be onto something this bizarre - it seems like such a copout on the part of a company whose corporate mission is to allow people to hear “more”.

Good hearing aids for audio/sound professionals/engineers?
#235

Quite right V, they state in that white paper:
The testing was done using participants who had different types of hearing loss and
different relations to music – some were music lovers
and amateur musicians

I like the use of the term “SOME WERE MUSIC LOVERS”

They don’t quantify the number of total participants, nor the number of music lovers, or musicians, and as @SpudGunner points out there is no reference to the standards used.

Did they use live musicians in a studio environment?
What type of speakers, and amplification were used for recorded music?

@JeremyDC brings up these issues, and I concur.

@cvkemp states the people in his church group are happy with the program, but what are their music backgrounds?

Bottom line, it’s much like "Pop"music, compress the hell out of it to make it sound loud, bloat the bass so people will think they’re listening to "Beats"headphones, oh, and distort the mids, while we’re at it for good measure!

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#236

Just what I am saying the program was designed for the ones of us without a music background. But if you want to know they are in the choir.

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#237

I dunno - I just don’t like this thought - do you really think that whether somebody’s guitar sounds good or bad depends in whether the person has had musical training? That’s what you’re suggesting, and I’m not buying.

There’s a lot of truth to what @flashb1024 is suggesting, because there’s a certain “sonic formula” for popular music. There’s formulas for country, too, and every other genre.

But I don’t think they work because of the audience’s musical training.

#238

Sorry buy what you will, I am saying what my audiologist says, due the the seminar he had over a zoom meeting with his Oticon rep.

#239

That is very interesting, Chuck.
Even the Oticon rep admits this is not an optimal program for serious music aficionados, or in @SpudGunner Jim’s case, musicians.

But still nothing explains that horrible muffled sound in the midrange.
Even the general program sounds better than MyMusic for vocals, and instruments within that frequency range.

#240

Every time I get new aids I have a couple of music tests. I listen to Loggins and Messina’s Motherlode album and CSNY’s Love the One You’re With.

I listen in both the all around and the music program. If the mandolin pieces don’t cause feedback while listening to the album and I can hear the xylophone while listening to the song, I’m usually a happy camper.

Things have improved greatly since my first Widex Senso Diva ITC aids almost two decades ago.

I’ve never experienced the Oticon music programs old or new, but I’m enjoying reading this thread.

And while I know they aren’t ultimately the same aids, I have read where the Philips Hearlink had a new music program that was introduced about the time Oticon’s MyMusic was released.

#241

Yup, :zap: Flash :zap:, and this is what I’m trying to explain to Chuck @cvkemp - that sound has nothing to do with training. What causes it, and why didn’t Oticon pick up on it? Or - if they did pick up on it - how come they let it stay?