Phonak Serenity Pro Hearing Protection Systems:
Phonak Serenity Safety Meter for verifying protection provided by a Serenity Pro setup:
Knowing Phonak, bet it ain’t cheap. But should give you documented NRR and allow you to communicate with fellow workers, if you or your company can afford it.
The main question would be - can it be a hearing aid, too, or is it just a highly-sophisticated form of hearing protection without any hearing aid function?
Taking a look at these links.
I do recall there are a regular radio calls at work, this would be kinda interesting if it’ll work for just one of the ear that I can hear from but I’m not sure how well it’ll do since my right ear is in severe-profound hearing loss range. I don’t know if that just allow me to hear the surrounding and listen to people talk at the same time.
I’m not understanding the question. I want to hear while I’m working.
Am not agreeing or disagreeing with following - a UK noise control company’s advice to EMPLOYERS on matters relating to employees with hearing aids in very noisy environments:
Hearing protection and hearing aids — The Noise Chap | Audiometry and Noise Assessments
Basically the noise control/abatement company says that modern hearing aids with amplification limits that are worn IN THE EAR under ear muffs are OK. The ear muff limits sound exposure. The hearing aid won’t amplify past its own set upper amplification limits.
But the advice is that BTE modern hearing aids are to be regarded with suspicion as they may block ear muff protection. I would think if one could find ear muffs that are comfy to wear and had big enough cups to fit over BTE bodies, you could then document that the hearing protection worked (well enough) with REM in the ear canal near the ear drum. The cups of my Surface Pro headphones fit well over my RIC ReSound Quattro’s and in fact, the main leakage, if any, is from the frames of my glasses preventing a good seal near my temples. (an interesting corollary topic relative to HA’s and hearing protection). Since I’m not bothered with the Surface Headphone cups pressed against my glasses frames because of the squishy cups, maybe you should try something similar. Rather than ordering from Amazon, maybe if you can safely do so w.r.t. COVID and masking, you should go to a Best Buy or similar and try on headphones on display, see how comfy they are and what their NRR, if any is?
Perhaps there should be no “%” sign after 27. Maybe what you mean to say is that OSHA is saying your hearing protection must have a NRR of at least 27 for each ear (with NO % sign involved?). If you are already at ~85 dB average, though, already allowable by OSHA for an 8-hour shift, with only 3 dBA reduction required to reach 82 dB average, allowable for a 16-hour shift, that doesn’t make sense, AFAIK. But maybe you are at 85 dB only if you wear the ear protection recommended by or to your employer??
AND
How to Make Noise Reduction Earmuffs and Headsets More Comfortable - NoisyWorld
I somehow did not see that letter when I was looking around in the OSHA site a month ago or two. Thanks for bringing that up, I’ll try again and tell the audiologist this situation and report back.
The reason why 27% NRR because somehow somewhere between the company I work for and OSHA, the company says they require it and that’s because OSHA tell them to, I’m not sure which is true but they are pretty strict as the company doesn’t seem like they’ll reconsider otherwise.
The headphone wrap is also out of the question. Any additional pressure around my ear is basically killing me. I’m already wearing safety glasses, facemasks, and the HA/CI on my ears at work. My ear is not handling the facemask well and it was leaking some liquid/itchy/flaking something from top of my ear, and being irritated. Plus on the other hand, I move around a lot including going up/down of things as other times headphones are more than likely to always fall off my head. I just want something easy and convenient, and not killing my ear physically.
An Internet search also shows that there are ITE (In-The-Ear) devices from companies that are probably Here Today-Gone Tomorrow, and relatively expensive devices, too, mostly related to gunshot sound protection, that claim to provide a NRR of 27. Performance Hearing Aids Custom, Edge and Open Series By AXIL and SportEAR Custom 360 ITE Custom Molded Hunting Hearing Aid (NRR 27) - SportEAR Sporting Ear Protection for stuff I wouldn’t advise buying.
It would probably be better to get any such hearing aid through an HCP from a well-established major brand company. I think the tough thing about an NRR rating is from what I read at the NoisyWorld.com link that I provided above: https://noisyworld.org/noise-reduction-rating-usage/, is that an NRR rating is derived by a three-times repeated test on 10 different individuals over the frequency range at 9 different frequencies. So by that requirement, an individual cannot derive a NRR rating for his own HA just by being tested himself - the company that makes the hearing device would have to do the NRR test to get the 10 subjects on whom the test at multiple frequencies is thrice repeated. And the interesting thing is since the tests are done in a lab situation and the muffs or ear plugs are fitted by an expert to a degree seldom achieved out in the field, both NIOSH and OSHA encourage users not to go by the declared ratings but derate the efficacy of both ear plugs and ear muffs for in-field use. Ear plugs properly used are supposed to be more effective than ear muffs, especially for low frequency sounds if inserted deeply into the canal but in practice, on the supposition that most ear plugs are never properly worn, ear plugs are supposed to be derated more than ear muffs. The Noisy World writer has a great discussion on this. Am mentioned this not for you personally but for anyone in the future who comes across this thread, interested in hearing protection and the use of these devices and how much to count on the lab-tested ratings.
This is really good information.
This is the kind of information the OP can take to his audiologist I would think. Finding the right audiologist who understands this can put him him in the right aids with the correct NRR rating to prove to his job (OSHA) that his aid truly is a hearing protection device.
I know that I can hear decently with only the CI processor. It has really good sound processing as far as limiting loud noises. If the OP could only wear the CI processor and then wear the job required hearing protection (Honeywell Laser Lites) he would probably be good.
My Cochlear processor phone app or remote control can radically turn down noise too. This to me would be the easiest solution if the OP can hear good enough with only the CI.
Sounds like a great suggestion that he should seriously work on with his audiologist first.
My interpretation (might be wrong) of what’s going on is that at MangoDragonFruit’s workplace, even though the noise situation is borderline passable with little or no additional hearing protection required for a 12-hour shift, his employer want to CYA by requiring all employees to wear hearing protection that has a rating of NRR 27, regardless. MangoDragonFruit wants to wear his hearing aid, not an earplug, in his “good” ear and finds ear muffs intolerable. So that therein is where the problem lies. He should skip the “NRR 27 % reduction” and just tells his audiologist that he needs a HA with an official NRR of 27 if your excellent make-CI-work suggestion can’t be achieved.
True but additional thing I want to point out for the benefit of being able to hear for time being:
-Safety sound alerts. Not all manufacturing have light alerts, nor even switching over to them asap.
-Being able to respond to things I should hear and perform well such as communication, keeping the machines running, and what else.
Meanwhile as I mentioned in my first post, I do wear my CI and ear plugs. However, I do not perform well at my job any better than what I previously had done with just my CI and HA. I currently am having issue with male voices, so I need to get the CI re-adjusted. I did brought my little remote to work with me and turned up the volume on the CI so I can hear better, I did. Now I think it resetted back to normal but not sure. Will check.
With that said, I want to take a benefit of looking into getting any help, suggestions, feedback, and the push and motivation to try to get OSHA to work with HA and loud areas. Not that it’ll benefit me but other who want that too. It’d certainly help.
I sent an email to one of my audiologist, haven’t heard back from the other, to this link of the forum and this is what I got back.
There aren’t noise reduction ratings (NRR) for hearing aids, only for hearing protective devices. NRR is a measure that indicates how much sound a device blocks out when fit perfectly in the ear canal. It is a measure of loudness (decibel), not a measure of percentage as your post in the forum suggests.
Take a look at this document if you haven’t already: https://www.osha.gov/dts/shib/shib122705.html . It reiterates the fact that a hearing aid is not a hearing protective device and will not meet OSHA criteria. Hearing aids and custom earmolds designed to connect to hearing aids do not have NRR.
I think we need to focus on how to achieve your goals of doing your job well and communicating as effectively as possible in your work environment. If we can come up with an effective plan that works, THIS will be the information to share with others and get the word out. Going up against OSHA or trying to develop a new device, I suspect, won’t be fruitful and certainly won’t fix your current problem anytime soon.
That last one is just salty, I want to connect to people who are willing to work with me. This is not me going to sue OSHA and many people who are working against me just because of this. This is me taking justice of how I am trying to bring something together. So therefore, I’ll not stop.
There was a popular business management book twenty three years ago - Who Moved My Cheese? that might provide some guidance on adapting to circumstances when people don’t see things your way.
I found an OSHA document way back from 2005 on OSHA policy on dealing with hearing impairment in noisy work places that predates the letter link that I sent you so that might have some helpful information in it:
The link to the corresponding web page that used to deal with the same topic is broken and no longer works: https://www.osha.gov/dts/shib/shib122705.html so I don’t know if the document that I’m referring you to is just an archival copy and no longer official OSHA policy.
There is also this slide talk from a consulting firm(?) as to what can be done for hearing impaired workers in a hazardous noisy workplace, which references the 2005 OSHA document: Effective Workplace Accommodations for Employees with Hearing Impairments pt 1 of 2 051619-Goddard.pdf (unt.edu)
I guess one thing that you could do is write or otherwise contact the various leading HA OEM’s: Phonak, Oticon, Sivantos(Signia, Widex, etc.), ReSound, Starkey and ask them if any HA, particularly custom-made ITE from a cast-mold would have an effective NRR/SNR rating or once custom-made could be rated. If you can get answers from at least a couple OEM’s, that would give you an idea of which way the wind usually blows. These companies or their representatives must have to deal with quite few folks each year in situations similar to yours.
It won’t do you any good to find a solution but not have a job so in the interest of keeping your job, it might be a good idea to go along as much as possible with what’s requested until you can muster a very, very convincing counter-argument. The best would be an alternative that OSHA has officially approved of for you. So I wonder if there is currently any office at OSHA that is so far removed from local interaction that your employer or local OSHA representatives don’t know about the department but the folks there have recent experience with providing solutions to situations like yours that you could be happy with - the previous OSHA letter that I referred you to was from The Directorate of Enforcement Programs - that’s pretty high up - but maybe that’s some place to start at OSHA? Good Luck. Hope you can find a win-win situation as it’s easiest to sell that sort of thing.
Jim has given you some great ideas.
One thing I learned while working is not to complain but have answers and solutions available to problems. Try to look at things from both sides of the fence. That job is not there for you but you are there for the job. Getting along is best.
Good luck.
I spent 25 years in the petrochemical field around all sorts of bosses and noise for that matter. Many areas with 100-120 dB. Freak times many times higher when packings failed or RV’s lifted and we were expected to get out in this noise and fix things.
Would maybe something like this work:
https://smile.amazon.de/gp/product/B003H4T0YS/
MOLDEX 6800 Wave-Band 2K
And then use remote mic for coworker you need to understand?
So, your aid on muted mic, these plugs over the ear canal (they are put from the front, not from the back, so they hang down your chin/neck, not at the back of your neck), remote mic for the coworker.
That way you’ll plug the opening in the mold, aids won’t pick up anything by themselves but will only stream from the mic.
This concrete model is rated with 27db, but maybe there’s similar stuff with your needed rating.
They put some pressure to ear canal opening/mold, but didn’t seem too much when I was using it. Granted, I was using it with S and P receivers in the canal and not more than 1-2h in a row, but your molds look like you don’t have receiver there, so that part won’t poke you so you might not even notice them.
I sent an email to OSHA asking what testing do they provide for audiologist to test for NRR, got no reply back as of yet.
In event if there is no reply, should I just send another email or send a mail? Or do I have other option to find out why OSHA do not provide any info of NRR testing to audiologists? If it’s not available, then why was it mentioned?
So I sent OSHA an email and got told each state regulate their own OSHA department. While my email was forwarded to TN OSHA, or TOSH, got a reply just basically referring to the regulation and nothing mentioned about any measurement to test hearing aids for NRR.
With that mentioned they didn’t say anything about opening up how or what. It seemed like they strictly believe that HA actually causes hearing damages regardless of restricted sound levels or something or do they not know that technology today can reduce that?
Where do I go from here?
Sent the email to TN OSHA and all I get back was ‘refer to manufacturer’s HA’.
Meanwhile check this out, why does this get approved and the HA get no attention? Seem a bit racist to me. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B089VVNRF6
That is a headphone with bluetooth that have earplugs.
Now I did mentioned about setting up the HA that include these earplugs or the foam one as well!
Might as well include I just got a new HA to try things out - Resound Enzo Q5 and it also come with noise reduction option in the app.
So another day continue, why does OSHA not care about HA users?
As a newbie, I am very impressed with and grateful for this Forum. I don’t think there’s anything else on the Internet that comes close to the problem-solving power inherent in the knowledge base of this group.
[Proud to be a member!]
Usually that refers to Audiologist and try to find a way to work around.
So for now I did asked Resound HA Manufacturer in the email about if they can find out what is their NRR is, their reply is no because HA are just amplified.
So HA Manufacturer only make HA to suit regular everyday wear but not for those in need of industrial work.
I brought up to an idea like the whole bluetooth situation with wearing the ear plugs and you can be in a channel via bluetooth to communicate with other instead of yelling across the road (like construction worker) to make it easier to a roadwork program. (Er However I just found out Yesterday as I went out on a walk on the sidewalk with a bunch of vehicles driving by, the sound is too loud and difficult even for filtering to communicate. I would use my old hearing aid for this situation because it was easier for me to handle. If we’re talking in the local spectrum of the area like a simple chat.)
Also, I did ask ADA but they just told me It’s an OSHA thing and to me it sounds like they will not do anything to interfere with OSHA or are afraid of OSHA like a lawsuit or something. Maybe someone else can send an email because I’m getting no response on my end of help I’d like to get the attention to push forward to have an OSHA approved HA.
Hello!!! It is me!!!
First thing….you have to be really assertive or the safety guys will run over you.
1 - hearing equipment is generally somewhat protective by the very fact that they can not output so much.
2 - a program can be implemented that will cut the total output even more.
3 - mold vents are contention points as they are avenues for loud sound to get in.
I worked at the mill until a year ago. Then I worked at another loud place for 9 months. Now I work in a quieter place.
You have a CI, so you will have to wear at least one ear plug.
There aren’t any great solutions. I could communicate better in the steel mill than at the 9 month place. This was due to the frequencies of the noise.
Yes the xpr7550e Motorola has Bluetooth. It must be enabled by the radio vendor. Then the resound phone clip will connect. Oddly. Phonak Miracle aids will NOT.
However, if your safety guy is a total Nazi, there is little to do…. Except maybe the active shooters headsets.
The OP’s main problem, though, IIRC, is that he requires an officially rated solution and is fairly stringent in what he’s willing to go with. It would be interesting to hear the latest from him.
Yes. There are no officially blessed setups made with us in mind. So far, luckily for me, I have been able to work with the safety guys enough that they nervously support me. In my yearly tests, my hearing has remained the same.
If his safety guy insists on something all packaged up and ready to go, the OP is screwed.