LE Audio and the Future of Hearing

My comments are speculation in reply to @d_Wooluf’s remark, “Why no emphasis on interoperability?” because I don’t think that they really plan to go for that in a big way. Relative to @MDB’s remark that you might use any classic BT microphone with Phonak’s version of classic BT, I think the HA OEM’s have a built-in way to control that: through their smartphone apps. In the apps, they can favor their own in-house devices and just not recognize other devices to work with a special program or with special perks within the smartphone app. Look at the Roger On app - it has its own special smartphone program designed to enhance operability with Phonak HA’s and a special Phonak license is required to unlock the gateway to HA reception of signal. An interesting conundrum for HA OEMs is that if BT LE Audio does truly bring interoperable accessory devices, HA have to support their existing proprietary BT LE accessory devices far enough into the future that BT LE Audio support and accessories have achieved sufficient market penetration to take over. I think that the HA OEMs are counting on the medical device aspect of HA’s limiting manufacturer access to the market and once you’ve sold a certain type of razor, you can invent ways to “encourage” users to only buy the pricey blades that best fit the razor - that’s where I see the market going. When I said the HA OEMs aren’t going to get down and dirty in the wearable market, how many accessories for hearing aids do Sennheiser and Jabra sell, @d_Wooluf? What I meant is that the HA OEMs have no intention of turning their business into a market that’s anywhere near as open as the wearable market unless stuff like the OTC “revolution” (kids in the car on the interminable trip: “Are we there yet, Mommy?!”) makes them do it to remain competitive in the HA market. Right now the HA market looks like mainly a restricted EU consortium of companies. When HA OEM’s start to announce mics, TV streamers, etc., that work with other OEMs’ HA’s, only then will I be a believer that there will be interoperable accessory devices that anyone can make and sell - but maybe they’ll all go the Phonak Roger licensing scheme, which you still need, don’t you, if you’re going to go with a FM receiver on a ReSound intermediary device or HA to get the Phonak Roger signal (ignorance showing here) to your non-Phonak HA’s. I see the Phonak Roger scheme being copied: if you want the best accessory for our brand of HA, you’re going to have to pay us extra moola to use vs. the open market “solution” that’s not going to work as well, give you all the HA features you get with our proprietary accessory device. Our proprietary accessory device not only broadcast in BT LE Audio but still broadcasts in our old proprietary BT LE mode - so if you’re still sticking with your “old” HA’s and don’t want the expense of new HA’s, you’ll want to buy our special proprietary accessory, which will work best with our previous HA’s and our future HA’s.

Anyone think that Phonak is going to come over into the BT LE Audio fold? Or that Apple isn’t going to try to maintain its walled garden MFi HA fold? Perhaps there will be special iOS features above and beyond standard BT LE Audio that you only get with a MFi HA (for which Apple undoubtedly gets paid a licensing fee or at least sets an admission barrier-right now Apple tries to favor its own iOS wearables, its own music service, and is under investigation in the US and the EU for anticompetitive practices) and perhaps just the fact that not any old OEM can make a MFi-compatible accessory will help restrict the market to those HA OEMs who are in bed with Apple in the MFi HA market, etc.

I don’t think you can selectively block audio streams. There’s no need to anyway. You can still carry on with your proprietary connections. You’ll be competing against open products, that’s all. No-one’s going to buy your $300 tv streamer when they can get a $30 LE Audio transmitter from ebay.

I don’t know enough about the Roger system to comment (all I had to do was look at the price to realise it wasn’t meant for me). Assume that someone can make a LE Audio product that’s almost as good and open. Forgot yours? Borrow mine. If Phonak found a way of blocking that, would you buy Phonak?

Speaking of Phonak, they’ve had their best couple of years ever. Part of the reason for that might be that they supported an official Bluetooth standard. I don’t think they’ll worry if they don’t sell any more Rogers but sell twice as many hearing aids.

Like you, I do think that the major players will try to find ways not to share their toys. I look at that device that plugs into an iphone and uses accelerometer information from Airpod Pros to localise voices in a group conversation. That kind of thing might be hard to standardise. Actually Apple might be the huge fly in the ointment in multiple ways.

No-one knows how it’s all going to pan out, but I’m confident the days of $300 tv transmitters will soon be over.

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This link was posted previously.

https://www.bluetooth.com/bluetooth-resources/jeff-solum-on-multi-stream-audio-for-hearing-assistance/

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and

If you look carefully, you’ll see that I didn’t say anything necessarily about “blocking” - just that an OEM’s accessory device would have special perks to work better with their own brand of HA’s as compared to anyone else’s accessory device or through the MFi club, if you didn’t meet Apple’s standards, you wouldn’t be admitted-the blocking there would be done by Apple. Both for battery monitoring apps and health/fitness apps, I’ve gotten comments back from iOS developers that Apple has put hard limits on what they’re allowed to do with those sorts of apps. So with a liberal imagination, I could see that Apple might similarly put limits on what accessory devices interacting with MFi hearing aids might be allowed to do through BT because of the amount of time or effort that Apple wants the HA’s to be listening up for info from the iPhone, etc.

Relative to this, in playing around with my Nintendo Switch game console, I’d like to stream BT audio from the Switch to a BT speaker. But as soon as I try to do that, I get a warning from the Switch that I’m only going to be able to use one set of Joy-Con controllers with my Switch game console (streaming to the speakers is taking away co-processor time or something from the possibility of streaming to other pairs of Joy-Con controllers that might be used by other players sharing my console). So in that vein, I can imagine Apple requiring a MFi accessory device to meet Apple standards so that streaming from a mic accessory to the HA’s doesn’t not detract from whatever Apple wants to have MFi HA’s be doing with their paired iPhone -getting app notifications or phone calls and such and having a way to hand over the audio channel promptly to an answered phone call, etc.

The deal with Roger is that if you buy newer Phonak HA’s, once you buy a Roger device (of the right type), you can use it directly with the Phonak aid. But even if you own a Roger device (of the right type), you can’t use it with another OEM’s HA’s unless you buy a Roger X FM receiver or a Roger neckloop. So Phonak has a “universal” microphone accessory that works with all brands of HA’s that can use an FM receiver or the neckloop T-coil while still maintaining a proprietary Phonak BT-like (I should imagine) communication protocol that is MUCH BETTER than classic BT as the Roger device is good to up to 80 feet away, according to the Phonak Roger On manual.

Phonak Manual and Guide web page for Overview of Roger On Remote Microphone: Roger On Overview | PhonakPro

Phonak Compatibility Summary for Roger On Mic: Roger On Compatibility | PhonakPro

If we’re talking about audio only, I think that LE Audio certification would require you to provide a level playing field for all connections. Preference for your products means a poorer user experience for others’ products which would harm the brands of Bluetooth and the other manufacturer. If the perks come from other data that gets transmitted at the same time as the audio, that might be possible.

Sounds like something regulating authorities would take a bit of an interest in. I think that hearing aid manufacturers would be wise to be even-handed between Android and Apple. Mfi was the only game in town. It is no longer. Half the world is on Android.

Similar to my comment above. Also, LE Audio will have a comprehensive protocol for dealing with voice communications. I doubt that Apple will be allowed to mess with it. Assuming that Apple want to go with LE Audio at all. If they don’t it shows a company that thinks it has a huge amount of market power.

Off-topic I guess, but it sounds like the Switch supports 2 BT connections only. Use one for audio and you lose a controller.

I’ve seen a few Roger topics around here. Questions about which licenses apply to which devices in which situations. My eyes kind of glaze over. I’d rather buy a device that (hate this phrase) just works. The whole point of the Roger (I might be wrong) is the low-latency FM connection. LE Audio should work just as well in that respect.

Although Roger X devices plug into FM receiver connections on HA’s or HA accessories, I think that they are actually proprietary BT-like LE devices. FM broadcast frequency is < = ~100 kHz. The following Phonak page says that Roger devices broadcast in the 2.4 GHz range, the same that Wi-Fit and BT are in. The maximum range cited for Roger devices on this page is 66 ft, whereas on the Roger On page, IIRC, it’s ~80 ft. Roger Clip-On-Mic FAQs | PhonakPro. The page FAQ also says that Roger transmissions are 100% digital, i.e., not classic FM.

Perhaps the perks coming from other data transmitted at the same time is the secret sauce of Roger devices - they can still have their classic BT channels available for phone, computer, etc., communication and the Roger mic can still work independently of what else they are connected to?! - with a better range than classic BT, too? Maybe a Phonak forum expert can clarify things.

Just as Apple devices can do classic BT (the way Phonak connects), I’d bet that they can do BT LE Audio, too, but maybe if you want to be a MFi HA partner, you have to add Apple’s secret sauce of special perks to HA devices and accessories to be a full Apple partner in the HA business. For instance, does BT LE Audio implicitly support Audio Handoff between iOS devices? If you were listening to a podcast on your iPhone but now start watching a movie on your iPad, MFi HA’s will automatically connect to whatever iOS device you’re using next and streaming media from. That would be a perk of an Apple MFi HA and presumably an accessory microphone properly designed would have to be well-behaved within the MFi Audio Handoff scheme of things, whatever BT LE Audio allows notwithstanding.

Sorry to have prematurely speculated on a number of things here. Since no BT LE Audio-capable phones or HA’s have appeared on the scene, we’re kinda discussing how many angels can fit on the head of a pin. Hopefully the clouds of Heaven will part within the year and all will be revealed. If Phonak HA’s support BT LE Audio, they may have a future customer in me!

Edit_Update: Old 2002 Audiology Online article on FM systems for children’s HA’s says FM originally 72.025 to 75.975 MHz, but a new bandwidth in the range of 216 to 217 MHz allocated because of interference in the 72 to 76 MHz range: Frequency Modulation (FM) Systems for Children with Normal Hearing Brian M. Kreisman Carl C. Crandell Hearing Aids - Children Aural Habilitation - Children Assistive Devices Pediat...

The first mobile phone SoC sporting Bluetooth 5.3 has been announced. Apparently MediaTek have included everything but the kitchen sink and the performance numbers look very good. We’ve heard that the first phone with LE Audio may have BT 5.3 inside, so a milestone of sorts.

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Neat. Sounds hopeful that the new Snapdragon and Exynos chipset will also.

i am very happy with my KS 10’s. Somedays, i just wear one aid while charging the other. It seems like only Right aid connects to Bluetooth fine. When i am wearing just the Left aid, i cannot get it to Bluetooth connect? what can i do to get BT to work with left HA only? Thanks. Also, sorry if this question may be in the wrong forum.

How come? You should be charging both at the same time, usually overnight.

Actually I don’t think it can, the bluetooth is set up for the right as (master) and then it streams to the left (slave). This is why the right side uses just a little bit more battery then the left.

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Isn’t it just the announcement of a chipset that could go in mobile phones? A casual search on the Internet just shows “chipset announcement” relative to MediaTek Dimensionality 9000 but I haven’t come across a phone actually using that chipset yet.

I think that’s what he said. SoC is System on a Chip I think

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Thanks for correcting me. I read through the SoC part and it didn’t register. Qualcomm has announced quite a while back chipsets that support BT LE Audio, though, e.g., the 888 chipset. So I’m not sure that the MediaTek is really the very first - maybe the Qualcomm 888 was BT 5.2 though?!

Yeah, the Qualcomm 888 is BT 5.2. Qualcomm Snapdragon 888: specs and benchmarks. I wonder if it’s firmware upgradeable to BT 5.3? It’s in a bunch of phones already.

Don’t know if 888 will be upgradeable to 5.3. Some phones with 888 only have BT 5.0 (Galaxy S21 and S21+)

i am new to HA. Sometimes ambient sounds are a bit too much. In a quiet room, I don’t need to hear a clock on the wall ticking in stereo inside my head. So, i just wear one; so sounds are not so overwhelming.

I wish i could do that. I do see “LE_L-KS hearing aid” as paired in my list of ‘Bluetooth & other devices’ but i guess no go for it to direct connect. Thanks for the explanation/info.

A couple of participants in a webinar I linked to a while ago opined that phone makers would probably wait until 5.3 before supporting LE Audio. This is the first 5.3 chipset, which may bring LE Audio a little bit closer.

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@mlak: (Welcome to the Forum. Could you please post your audiogram so we can post better-informed suggestions?)

I suspect that your brain is overwhelmed because your hearing loss has gone untreated for a while. Your brain has “forgotten” how to hear certain things, how to focus on only certain sounds, and filter out others.

Wearing only one HA is definitely not a solution. You need to talk to your audiologist about activating the gradual habituation feature of your devices (this starts your insertion gain off at perhaps 80% of your prescription, and ramps up gradually over a period of time). In the meantime, try turning the volume of both HAs down.

Wearing only one device at a time is like having a new pair of shoes and wearing only one at a time because you’re not used to them and they hurt your feet!

Maybe you could start a new topic to address your questions. As far as I can tell you’re not talking about LE Audio- which is the topic we’re discussing in “LE Audio and the Future of Hearing”.

Thanks

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Confirmed that new Quallcom Snapdragon 8 Gen 1 SOC supports Bluetooth LE Audio. Qualcomm’s new Snapdragon 8 Gen 1 chip is here to power the Android flagships of 2022 - The Verge
Phones expected before end of the year, although I suspect first US phone will be Samsung S22 series in February.

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Sure, and I just bought a Pixel!
Anyway the S22 series would be beyond my budget$$$$