THANK YOU GrayGhost - You are an honest person!
As I said, FIRMWARE updating… is probably the only time.
AND it was OLD, not as I specified - modern.
Interestingly - it was of a similar model, so that is how the accident occurred, which the poster admits was due to operator error.
Now to return to the topic - WHY do audiologists refuse to reprogram online purchases. I wonder how they might know the sale was made online. If I went to an AuD, I would just say, I want these programmed please. Maybe Santa, or my girlfriend gave them to me.
What difference does MY source make to him? Oh wait - Maybe he is looking for a better price to get his? That must be it.
Any person providing a service on a commercial basis is not obligated to provide that service to all requestors. It’s a fact of life. So audiologists are free to decline reprogramming hearing aids for any reason, both factual and otherwise.
I am not an audiologist so I can’t speak for any of them, but from a business perspective the risk has to be worth the reward. So the number of times it happens or whose falut it was that it happened is not really important, the knowledge that it can happen is what it is important - every time they choose to do it they are taking a risk. No one but the person taking the risk can decide if it is worth it to them. So each individual audiologist needs to weigh the risk vs. the reward. What is the reward? A couple hundred dollars probably? If they are already doing ok financially I can see where it might not be worth the risk of having a set be or get damaged and then having to either bear the cost of fixing/replacing them or even the damage to their reputation that a problem could cause.
Yes, the risk must be worth the reward and so from the evidence cited so far, it is pretty much certain to be risk free!
But the professional should require a patient bringing their own instrument for work to sign a release of all liability which could include a well crafted legal list of all exclusions and possible fails.
At the same time, I think it needs to be said that when you work on a hearing aid, the client is a patient, and so should be treated differently than just a customer. The patient should be treated as a doctor would treat a patient recovering from an injury, or treatment somewhere else. There should be some legal understandings, but also a willing compassion. Not indifference cloaked in impatience.
I guess this is where risk tolerance comes in, because even this thread has shown that it can happen. Unless I was desperate for income, I would not take that risk. And you can get people to sign all the well crafted exclusions and releases of liability you want, that will do nothing about word of mouth and bad reviews from someone who thought it was essentially risk free and then had their HAs ruined. Again, I am not an audiologist, but I can totally understand why it wouldn’t be worth the hassel for someone to agree to program a set of aids for which they have no support, warranty, etc.
Online purchases do have warrantees, Maybe shorter ones, but expandable ones. And from what I am hearing so many are unhappy with their providers - to wit - seeking alternatives and alternative brands albeit feeble models, that all are in pain.
I speak out of interest in helping patients, potential patients and the many hearing vendors that are missing the mark.
Not sure of your passion in this… but I hear you.
One might not want to deal with an audiologist who won’t program aids for a fee just because they were not purchased there. Of course there are exceptions but consider it an easy filter. If they don’t handle that brand that is a different issue. While they can still run REM to check that the money is likely better spent at a place familiar with the hearing aid brand.
Don’t change the provider, take your money elsewhere.
You do accept the only ‘real’ reason why you would establish a business in the first place though? Have you tried paying your utility bills with vocational gratitude tokens?
Some people lack the intestinal fortitude to acknowledge this, while other people eat meat not being able to consider what happens in a slaughterhouse. Just because dissociative reasoning is appealing, it doesn’t replace the underlying facts of a situation.
Ok, for the record I’ll repeat the arguments on this.
You turn up having supported my competition with your ‘online’ purchase.
Are they legit: Stolen, grey market, re-badged demos, fakes, factory seconds, fake warranty - we touch them, they break: who is liable?
We ascertain provenance: time/effort farting about, we test you, we reprogram - you don’t like it/they break: who is liable; how much do you pay for the time/effort/experience involved so far - the hourly rate or the cost of putting the shop/equipment/personnel there that day?
You need an adjustment 4 weeks later/they break, how much? who covers the warranty issue?
Is there any implied ongoing warranty, are you now ‘my customer’ do you expect me to deal with Manufacturers on your behalf? Are you entitled to annual checks, free servicing, domes and waxtraps like my other clientele? How do I differentiate that difference to my front of house staff?
As I’ve said elsewhere; we do offer it as a limited service (£400 ea), where the supply of the aids has happened through a legitimate source and there’s a genuine reason why the client has had to move to us. However, given the above I can see why people wouldn’t want to. Try taking another internet purchased healthcare device/consumer durable into a ‘bricks and mortar’ business and demanding they undertake a warranty fix on it: let us know how you get on.
I think I might have a ‘Rumpole of the Bailey’: audiologist edition in the back of my head somewhere.
My sympathies also go to Messers Dunning and Kruger, at the beginning, when they had to describe their concept to people who potentially didn’t have the grasp of their concept; etc etc etc…….
Thanks @Um_bongo for your comments on this older foregoing topic.
Your argumentation makes sense and it is good that people, as me also, realize that there are arguments also to consider from a professional point of view one might not always be aware of.
It’s like in real life the struggle that things aren’t always clear for everyone without being discussed. Which unfortunately often leads to polarization and branding. But I hope it brings us more together on this forum and I am glad you took the time here to explain.
I learned a lot on this forum and could make my ears as far as possible happy again, which hadn’t been possible without any help of a lot of forum members and founders I found here. Thank you all.
You know Stephen, on more than one occasion, I have bought aids online second hand, more out of curiosity than anything else, just to try them… A private Audiologist, I know, has always programmed them for me, and charged me absolutely zero, even when I pushed them to charge something… I have given them artwork in return, for their efforts though. Other A.uDs have given me software, that wasn’t obtainable anywhere at that particular time, I am a great believer in the old saying, “The hand that gives, is the hand that gets”… I do applaud any A.uD’s, whom do help some folks out, it’s not easy being HOH, especially if funds are limited! A simple signed waver, that you are not responsible for future breakdowns or failures, should cover any future eventualities! Cheers Kev
That’s great to hear, but i assume these are Auds that you have purchased aids and services from before and built a relationship with over time. Would that assumption be correct? I have done the same for clients who come to me with aids purchased online, or gifted to them from a loved one. But in every instance, these were clients who trusted and invested their time and money in me with previous aid purchases.
Yep @Louie, you are 100% correct in your assumptions, I have always found being friendly, polite, honest and respectful, goes a long way, when you require a favour… You build any relationship with trust, for many A.uD’s, my guess would be, I came across as a “Lovable Rouge” On more than one occasion, I have been called as much, and worse! The Audiologists that I trusted, were fully aware, that I had a penchant for self programming…TBH, it’s rare for me nowadays, as I don’t feel the need to tweak my aids, as they are IMO, set to optimal level… I recall, many years ago, going into a friendly A.uD’s office, for nothing more than a chat on the passing, as I entered her office, I immediately noticed a new copy of Target 1.0 on top of her computer, I nonchalantly asked for a copy, her immediate response was take that one, I have others, with the proviso, “you never got it from me”, I could have kissed her These Phonak Target disks, were encrypted, so you couldn’t burn them to a blank disk (as I found out later) and when many DIY’ers on here asked me for a copy, through trial and error, I found, I could copy to the hard drive, then copy to a flash drive, these were an expensive option at the time, but eventually these flash drives were distributed to all corners of the globe… Cheers Kev
I would suggest that one of the huge factors that impacts whether clinics choose to fit outside hearing aids is how patients treat us–how many times a particular clinic has been burned. I think I mentioned ages ago that just having the cost structure set up (or not) is a factor, and lots of rational factors have been discussed above. I think that the aggressive dude is correct that bricking has gone down a lot since we got rid of wires but yes, still happens occassionally and often during some sort of data transfer interuption. But honestly, we don’t have much interest in seeing patients who are mean to us. We have the pricing structure set up to fit outside hearing aids, but you can outline the limitations as clearly as humanly possible at the outset and still get yelled at six months later when something has gone wrong and the patient has to pay for a new appointment to fix it. It has happened so consistently that I’m sure I now have an implicit bias that the patients who come in asking for this service are likely to be this sort of angry, yelly patient. So the cost of refitting outside hearing aids ticks back up because on average these patients are a headache. Some are surely not, they just get tarred with the same brush.
Audiological services cost what they cost, so in a rational pricing structure a bundled model and a pay-as-you-go model end up, on average, to be about the same. But pay-as-you-go, sadly, is often that cost plus arguing.
I agree with @Neville and @Um_bongo regarding demanding impolite patients. It’s problem in my job too.
I am a “man in the middle” because I asked the nearest audio clinic about Phonak; they responded that they do not sell them. Then I asked if I could buy the Sphere independently and simply “pay per service” for tests, earmold impression, REM, and fitting. They agreed, so I bought the hearing aid from Wholesalehearing.co.uk and have had it since March 4th.
Then, when I provided a correction of the cShell form, they said I had to get a fitting elsewhere because they did not have the Target software.
It turned out that the “pay-per-service” agreement gave me their youngest employee, who probably doesn’t know about the lack of Target software.
I don’t blame anyone. I will look for an audiologist with REM equipment, although now I may have a harder time since I have already purchased the Sphere HA without prior agreement.
I’ve been self employed. Chased good money and bad money. As an engineer I have legal responsibilities when I do my work. I’m accountable to Professional Engineers Ontario. So I understand.
I feel deeply in the debt for Hearing Well Matters who took me in as a customer even though I have a workman’s compensation claim
My hearing aids were supplied by CVA so the new company is really appreciated.
These Phonak Target disks, were encrypted, so you couldn’t burn them to a blank disk (as I found out later) and when many DIY’ers on here asked me for a copy, through trial and error, I found, I could copy to the hard drive, then copy to a flash drive, these were an expensive option at the time, but eventually these flash drives were distributed to all corners of the globe… Cheers Kev