@glucas: I can understand, to some extent, your reaction to @Volusiano 's statement, but I think there’s some misunderstanding. I can’t speak to what was in his mind when he wrote that, but permit me to share an anecdote:
I started wearing Oticon More3s in March of this year, after 6 years of disuse of a pair of badly-fitted Unitron North Moxi Fit 800s. I upgraded to More1s a month later;
Because they worked so well for me, I started wearing my Mores for, on average, about 18 hours a day. I soon realized that there were many sounds and words that I could hear, but not interpret/decode effectively;
On this Forum, I learned from @Neville that, over those 6 years of hardly wearing my HAs, my brain had reallocated some cognitive capacities to other senses (probably vision), and warned me that it would take time and persistence to get the hearing capability back - if, indeed, I could do so - (he was right);
By the month of June, my wife began to comment about how much my hearing had improved with my new hearing aids;
In August, a medical emergency forced me to attend the emergency room of our local hospital. I had just put my More1 devices to charge after a long, 18 hour day, so I was forced to wear my Unitrons to the hospital, with predictably frustrating, annoying results which I’ve already documented in another thread. The Moxi Fits were as useless on that occasion as they had been for the prior 6 years.;
Since August, I’ve continued to wear my More1s for 18+ hours a day. I have noticed an improvement in my speech comprehension along the way, however, a real test presented itself two weeks ago, when I dropped off my Oticons to the audiologist to remove the MyMusic program and load the Comfort program in its place (this has proven to be a good decision, BTW);
On that occasion, for the first time in 6 years of terrible results when wearing my Unitron North Moxi Fit 800s I had terrific speech comprehension for the 4 hours I wore them, on the day I had my More1s adjusted. I enjoyed lunch with a close friend in a noisy little Korean restaurant (he wears a More1 on one side only) and hardly had to ask for a repeat, even though my friend is very soft spoken, and I was not obliged to deploy my remote mic, which was almost always required, in the past. (Needless to say, I’m delighted that I now have a spare set of HAs that give me good speech comprehension.)
The only variable here is time, and the brain learning that has been taking place since March. Normally, I find myself in the quiet environment of my home, with my geriatric pets, where even my poorly-adjjsted Unitrons were adequate, even before the improvement in my BrainHearing. Wearing my Oticon More1s, however, has given me the confidence to want to go out for the odd lunch with my friends, and I’ve been doing that about once a month since March. I’ve found myself in other noisy situations over the same interval, and so I have had more than one opportunity a month to practice my BrainHearing, including focussing and filtering. It’s all getting better.
Returning to @Volusiano 's comments: I don’t believe that he’s making as broad a statement as you infer in your reply (in which I think you make a valid point about the nightmare of noisy restaurants). I believe @Volusiano means to reference my type of situation, and the kind of circumstances to which member @cvkemp Chuck frequently refers, in which we’re getting consistent incremental improvements (though not necessarily perfection) through practice. The more I work at it (and - like Chuck - I’ve benefited from “hearing therapy” exercises like reading along with ebooks, as well as WaPo’s robotic reader), the greater my capacity to focus on elements of the soundscape in which I find myself, and filter out unwanted sounds and voices.
I’m not saying that everyone will share my experiences, however, I do think there’s a lot of truth in @Volusiano 's and @cvkemp 's posts on the subject of BrainLearning. It sure has worked for me!
@Volusiano I’m not looking for an instantaneous wow factor. In fact i’ve stated that rather clearly in the two threads I’ve posted in. I fully understand the Oticon concept and, like every other brand that tout their methods, I only care if it performs. The kitchen scenario is only one example. And you’ve never heard my wife in the kitchen. I’m not a home body. I’m active. I spend a lot of time out. Crowded gatherings are common place occurrences for me. Also I’m in restaurants at least once a week. There are plenty of situations for the More 1 to flex its Brain Hearing muscles. And I’ve been clear that the best a 30 day trial can do is give me enough information, positive or negative, to stay with a product and go through the extended tuning process to obtain peak performance. Right now that is what’s up in the air.
I’ve already benefitted from the More 1. Voices from the side and back and even in meetings with people facing away from me are vastly improved. Music on the other hand is severely lacking in comparison to the Widex but I’ve gotten info here that should improve it. I’m also going to implement the suggestions I’ve gotten from you and Spud and hopefully that will improve things.
SIN is the holy grail. I was able to discount that for a time for other benefits like music performance with the Widex. That is no longer the case.
Have you considered Whisper? Everyone here who’s using it is impressed by its speech-in-noise performance. The catches are, it has an external processor (which is carried, not worn), and some features are still under development.
I’ve read some of the testimonies and find them interesting. I’d rather not have to carry a “brain” as I find my own cumbersome enough. Also it is not covered by insurance–at least not yet. I can have the premier level of any of the top 6 for no out of pocket cost. I’d rather stay with one of those for now. I can have a new pair every three years and I’ll keep an eye on the Whisper. If I can’t find one that works for me I’ll surely be looking in that direction.
I agree with you that we see incremental improvements and I acknowledge what you say about threrapy and disused brain function etc…
I am not arguing but I would point out that perhaps in fairness to Volusiano he just simply meant that some improvements would be possible.
I tend to take a fundamental line or have the hope that this should either work or not. Not just in a simple noisy environment with one or two talkers, but in a really severe noisy environment with multiple talkers. I think also part of the problem is the lack of specificity about what we are talking about as with any scientific experiment there are numerous variables.
I jumped immediately to the worst case scenario - which is multiple talkers, bad acoustics, average of noise of over 90db. Then of course you have to take the physiology of the subject. If they have great SIN scores and it works from them, then great. But we would be talking about a different cohort.
Don’t forget - I drink the Oticon kool aid. And I am not inclined to be cynical. I have seen slow but steady incremental improvements, but am yet to be convinced until I see a Eureka moment or see enough anecdotal reports of them.
@glucas: Oh, glucas - please don’t take my comments as confrontational or pushing back against yours. I simply wanted to ensure that we weren’t being too critical of @Volusiano’s take on the subject. I consider you both to be very positive contributors to the Forum, and capable of some great dialogue in the face of differing opinions.
You’re exactly right in these latest comments, and I can’t add anything to them. I simply want to ensure that you don’t have the impression that I’m arguing with you. Because I’m not.
[ BTW: THe only Eureka moment I’ve had was after I had restored the default values for NNS and switched on SIN in a noisy mechanical garage. The suppression of noise and separation of multiple (3) voices was just amazing.]
As I read through these post I see that absolutely everyone has different hearing issues, losses, environments, and other challenges, which backs up my belief that we as individuals hear differently, because of up bringing, our living environments over our lifetime, how long we went without the hearing help we needed, all of this make each of us the individuals that we are.
Just something to think about.
People on these forums share their WRS all the time, but seldom their SIN test results. There are people with loss like Volusiano who need a 3 dB SNR boost to do okay in noise, and people with mild hearing loss who need a 12 dB boost. There is no premium hearing aid on the market that can manage the latter on its own. Given your asymmetry, I would already be guessing that your SIN performance is a struggle–speech in noise processing relies heavily on binaural skills.
I guess you missed reading my previous comment in post 95, which I will quote again below for reference to the point you make. In this previous comment, I did say that not everyone takes to the open paradigm and some people simply do better with more help from the more aggressive beam forming approach…, which is perfectly fine, too.
And throughout many of my posts here and there, I’ve mentioned before an example of someone who tried in earnest the OPN 1 back then (@bluejay) and simply could not get it to work for her. Then she switched to the Phonak Audeo back then and was much more happy with it. Then she stuck with the Phonak brand and upgraded to the Marvel, and then the Paradise, and continued to be happy with them all.
But I would not make such a definitive statement like you did above simply because it doesn’t work out as well for you. While the physiology of YOUR ears won’t allow for it, the physiology of some other people are salvageable and can be trained with success to adapt and tune into individual voices OK. It’s worked for a lot of people and that’s why the Oticon OPN/S/More have be a success for many, even though it doesn’t work for many others as well. I notice that folks with severe hearing loss like yourself tend to have much less luck with the Oticon OPN/S/More than folks who have better hearing and the more normal ski slope loss.
So it’s not about drinking the Oticon Kool-aid like you claimed you did. It’s about if you already decide to give the Oticon OPN/S/More a trial, make an earnest and positive effort to try it out, and if it doesn’t work out for you, that’s perfectly fine and you move on to try something else that’d work better for you.
The bottom line is that I never said that it would work for everyone if they just try it and give it time. I only said give it the best try while you have it, and if it doesn’t work for you, then move on.
Yeah, I think @Neville 's comment about trying out the Paradise with the Roger pen is probably the best suggestion for you right now. But do stick with the More 30 day trial until the end because you’ve already started it, unless you’re absolutely convinced that it’s not going to get better for you any time soon even by the end of the trial.
I think I did mentioned about the Philips HearLink 9030 AND the Whisper in your other thread “Tweaking the Oticon More” right away in my post #2, which is my first reply post to your original first post. But like I said in there, with your insurance situation, if you’re limited to buying only through TruHearing, neither of those options are going to work for you with the insurance.
So in all fairness, I’m not trying to convince anybody to drink the Oticon Kool-Aid. But once you’re already in a trial with the Oticon More, I just want to explain clearly to help them understand so that they have the right expectation and give it an earnest try and if it still doesn’t work out for them, at least it’s not because they didn’t put in the effort to really try it out, that’s all.
I’ve spoken with you in the past Neville and you’ve been right on every time. I’ll be on the road today but I’ll get with you later or sometime tomorrow.
Thanks!!
Big Bang on the left side is the cause of that assymetry.
I disagree with your statement that our brains can’t adapt to loud noises like restaurants. While not everyone has the capability to change and adapt others do. I have adapted. I can now enjoy being with friends, family and going to restaurants that in the past I couldn’t do. My family is loud when you get 11 grandkids, 5 kids and their spouses all in a small environment or a by design loud restaurant. There was a time I wouldn’t go, or I would have to use ear plugs. I can now manage to endure being with my whole family. There are several stages to it one the aids, next the will power or desire to be part of the family and slowly over time allowing myself to be in increasing amount of noise with the proper aids or hearing protection. Can everyone do it? I would say maybe but not likely. I have because I was tired of the isolation from my family during holidays and family reunions. My brain has adapted because I was so bull headed and kept plowing a long and in during some pain a long the way.
Covered Gun range next to a 460 Weatherby with a brake. I asked if he would hold off firing until I got my hearing protection on but he pulled the trigger anyway. It was literally painful. I just packed up and left. I had loud ringing in that ear for two days and it was never right after that.
When I go to the range I put my hearing protection on before getting out of the vehicle. I also mute my aids, but leave them on, my ear molds act a little like ear plugs
I am talking about comprehension, not adaptation to loud voices.
This is my scepticism. And why I reacted like I did. It’s very black and white. If you can hear nothing at all but a cacophony of noise, then no amount of adaptation is going to help.
Add that to what I know about the complexities I understand of separation of speech from noise and then distinguishing individual voices, then I am doubly sceptical.
I am not dissing somebody who is being helpful. And I understand his advice is heavily caveated. But I am genuinely questioning how many people this is going to work for and which groups of people?
If we said - maybe 90% in the mild/moderate category - ok. That is great.
If we said - maybe 50% in the moderate/severe category - ok. That is great.
If we said for severe losses - maybe only 30% - ok. That’s great as well.
But we know nothing.
I am happy it works for Volusiano. I truly am. And I understand that he understands that it doesn’t work for anyone. He caveated his information - that is fine.
But the claims are still wooly. For me - there should be little adaptation period. It should just work and things should be clear. I don’t want to read that it will take several months. This is beyond frustration. The fact that Whisper have appeared to do something that Phonak and Oticon could not have achieved so far is beyond belief to me. They should be well ahead of the game. What have they been doing but driving around in flash cars in Denmark and Switzerland whilst the Tesla of hearing aids have come up with something better???
Over the same time my speech understanding with aids has improved, while my speech understanding without aids has gotten worse. Go figure. Does it mean it works for all no, it depends on the efforts put into improving. Nothing in life is free and improvement takes effort regardless of age, and the older I get the harder I have to work. I spend at least an hour a day working on my word recognition, some days more like 4 hours. I find and issue with understanding a word or phrase I, write it in my journal and find a way to work at remembering it and recognizing it. I follow a long with my audiobooks by reading along with it. If I failed to hear the word correctly I back up and listen over and over if necessary.
I’m not a home body. I’m active. I spend a lot of time out. Crowded gatherings are common place occurrences for me. Also I’m in restaurants at least once a week. There are plenty of situations for the More 1 to flex its Brain Hearing muscles. And I’ve been clear that the best a 30 day trial can do is give me enough information, positive or negative, to stay with a product and go through the extended tuning process to obtain peak performance. Right now that is what’s up in the air.
Also it is not covered by insurance–at least not yet. I can have the premier level of any of the top 6 for no out of pocket cost. I’d rather stay with one of those for now. I can have a new pair every three years and I’ll keep an eye on the Whisper. If I can’t find one that works for me I’ll surely be looking in that direction.