Oticon introduces Oticon More

[dan_public]

Volusiano,

Good comments and questions. Answers below.

Thanks,

Dan

@Volusiano

I thought Widex hearing aids are touted for their excellence in music listening, so it’s interesting to hear that you find the music quality no so great with your Evoke 440.

To be fair, they may have good music reproduction. That said, since I always listen to piano, music, videos, etc. through my headphones, the feedback squealing is so bad that it destroys the music. So it’s hard to tell about the music reproduction.

@Volusiano

Does your Widex have telecoil? I think for headphones listening, telecoil equipped hearing aids have an advantage because the telecoil will pick up the electromagnetic field from the headphones’ speakers so you don’t have to rely on the HA’s mics picking up sounds from the headphones, which can be more prone to feedback due to wearing headphones. So if your Evoke has telecoil, have you tried to use it for headphones? If not, telecoil would be something you want in your next HA.

My Widex HA’s have telecoil. However, it appears that a “T” program needs to be activated. This apparently shuts off the hearing aid microphones and gets sound directly from teh iPhone. However… I don’t think this will work in my situation.

First, there is no “T” program in my HAs. Second and more importantly, the sound is coming from my headphones and NOT the iPhone.

I have two music computers - one for my digital piano and one for my Digital Audio Workstation. The signal paths are:

Digital Piano Workstation: Digital Piano --> Digital Piano Software --> Audio Interface --> Headphone Amplifier --> Headphones

Music Production Workstation: Midi Keyboard --> Cubase DAW software --> Audio Interface --> Headphone Amplifier --> Headphones

As you can see, the music sound does not come from an iPhone. It comes from the headphones. I hope my description is clear and apologize if my prior post was confusing.

If you’re unfamiliar with Cubase Digital Audio Workstation (DAW) and are interested (or bored), the links below show what I’m trying to accomplish. It also helps show why a good set of headphones are critical.

Thanks for the feedback.

Best regards,

Dan.

---

Cubase production software: https://new.steinberg.net/cubase/

An Orchestra video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cJGl84c8tw

A nice “Epic” piece: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-tiN7ztB0Q

[a2wheelerte]

Just adding that I have Oticon OPN S1 and there is a program for full time t-coil and another that mixes T-coil with the microphones. I have the mic’s set to -9 db compared to t-coil. Works well with old phones, but mostly I use this for motorcycle helmet which has speakers in the helmet. Very good sound. As a side note, this cold weather has had me wearing my beanie cap to keep the ears warm - I just set the program to the helmet setting and it works great. No feedback and I can still hear from the mic’s. I would certainly look for HA that has the mixed t-coil and mic program.

[Volusiano]

@dan_public

First, there is no “T” program in my HAs. Second and more importantly, the sound is coming from my headphones and NOT the iPhone.

I understand that you’re not talking about streaming (sound coming from the iPhone), but you’re talking about sound coming from the speakers inside your headphones.

Perhaps you’re not familiar with how the Tcoil in hearing aids work. What you’re doing in your case sounds like you just let the speakers inside your headphones generate sound waves through the air, reaching and picked up by the mics of your hearing aids. That’s the conventional way of listening, but not the tcoil way. It can cause feedback because the headphones cover up the ears and hearing aids, creating a feedback loop.

But what you don’t realize is that the speakers inside your headphones, beside pushing out pressures into the air to create soundwaves picked up by your HAs’ mics, the magnets that’s part of the speakers inside your headphones also generate the equivalent electromagnetic waves in parallel to the sound waves in the air. So in full-timeTcoil mode, the HA uses only the Tcoil to pick up the electromagnetic waves and not use the mics to pick up the sound waves. This solves the feedback issue caused by the headphones covering up your ears and HAs.

Apparently, @a2wheelerte said that the Oticon OPN S1 also has a mixed mode that uses both the tcoil and the mics together so you can hear sound from the electromagnetic waves from the headphones AND still pick up surrounding environmental sounds using the mics (in case your headphones are the open-back or on-the-ear type that lets in external sounds).

[dan_public]

Volusiano,

Hi. I just got back from an appointment with my Audi. There are two different issues with two different solutions and no crossover. How does this related to the Oticon More? Hopefully I can find a better solution with the More.

The first issue is between the Widex HAs, and the iPhone and iPad. Although it’s a bit of a hack, my HAs now connect to my iPad or iPhone. No headphones involved.

The solution to this issue works, but it’s not great. It appears that the iPhone X (10) and iPad don’t play that well with Widex HAs. The HAs can not connect to both Apple devices at the same time. After working on a solution for over an hour, we discovered that the only stable solution was to turn on Bluetooth on one and turn off Bluetooth on the other. Turning on Bluetooth on both devices caused the configuration to go corrupt. It’s a bit of a hack, but it works (I hope).

The second issue is between headphones and HAs. In this solution, HAs are just standalone with no connection between the HAs and the music workstations. The only sound comes from the headphones. The headphones are required because the Widex HAs simply can not provide the sound quality necessary, especially in the low midrange and base notes.

The problem has been feedback. My Audi created a new program that hopefully with eliminate the feedback. I’ll test this tomorrow morning.

I’m hoping that Oticon More HA scan provide a simpler, better solution that eliminates the feedback squeal.

Thanks for the information.

Dan.

[Volusiano]

@dan_public The issue with not being able to connect to multiple Apple devices at the same time is not isolated to the Widex only. It’s the same with Oticon HAs. I suspect it’s the same with most other hearing aid brands/models that provide MFI support. You can “pair” the HA to multiple Apple devices but you cannot “connect” to them at the same time. You can only connect to one at a time and that’s why you need to turn BT off on the other one. Technically the Apple devices are supposed to be smart enough to hand-off the connection from one device to another, but I’ve only seen it work a couple of times randomly, and most of the times it doesn’t do it. I think this is an Apple MFI issue, not an HA issue.

But you’re right that streaming will not give you the ability to hear low frequency sounds decently enough. You want to use headphones to get this kind of sound quality. But headphones present the issue with feedback (depending on how badly the hearing loss is). That is why I kept trying to explain to you that the telecoil option is the ultimate solution to eliminate feedback when using headphones. But having said that, it’s possible to listen with HAs that don’t have telecoil through headphones without feedback if you have the right feedback prevention technology to tackle the issue. Like currently I can use the OPN 1 with headphones with minimal feedback. Or I can use the OPN 1 built-in mini coil with headphones without any feedback at all.

The OPN S and the More does have a new feedback prevention technology that nobody else has (and not available in the original OPN which I have either) that can potentially solve this issue for you without needing a telecoil for headphones use. So it’s worth trying it out. But the More also has telecoil built-in, so that should give you many options, either using telecoil with headphones, or use the new feedback prevention technology for headphones use without resorting to the telecoil mode. You really should give it a try.

[bobbydigital16]

I currently have OPN 1 and I have started a trial of the OPN More 1 yesterday, so it’s been about 24 hours with them.

I’m pretty impressed with these so far, but agree it’s not a “wow” factor as compared to when I went from my old Stark Xino to the Oticon OPN 1 originally. Things do sound clearer compared to my OPN 1 including speech/dialog, including what I’m watching on TV.

Here is my audiogram in case that’s helpful for people to know:

I can understand why people are saying the dfifference isn’t night and day dramatic. For me, due to my insurance, the More 1 will probably only cost me about $1300 out of pocket, which would include new ear molds and meeting a $500 insurance deductible which I haven’t met yet due to it being so early in the year.

So for me, the ROI evaluation is really about whether these are worth $1300 or not, and not whether they are worth the full selling price. For me, it’s $5495 through my audiologist which is unbundled pricing (includes all adjustments within 45 days).

One thing I noticed is that when streaming is that the Oticon iOS app lets me adj the EQ for low/mid/high, which I don’t recall ever having with my OPN 1. Perhaps it’s a new app feature that i just didn’t notice before now. Listening to music isn’t great through the streaming, but I find that feature invaluable (as I did on my OPN 1) for taking calls, and generally listening to stuff like random youtube videos or podcasts where audio quality isn’t paramount importance.

Another thing to mention is how much better feedback control is with this. With my OPN 1, I had to have a separate program created for my over the ear headphones, since I like to wear my HAs while I wear my over the ear bose headphones. I could never not have feedback kick in with my OPN 1, so the headphone program was created to dial down the levels/gain. It worked but music sounded thinner and was a pain to manage switching profiles. With the More 1, no special program is needed. I could use the same standard program that is setup for my hearing.

Lastly, I really like the rechargeable option. Yesterday, had them on all day from 11am through midnight, with probably 2 hours worth of total audio streaming and was at 50% battery left at the end fo the day. The charging station is a little bulky, but it’s a nice setup on the nightstand. It’ll be annoying to travel with it, so I hope later on they make some type of travel optimize charger, which maybe could include a hybrid corded+battery case so you could charge on the go in a pinch (e.g. long layover or set of flights).

[dan_public]

Volusiano, bobbydigital16,

Good morning and thanks for the feedback (pardon the pun).

Regarding the telecoil, using it would not meet my needs unfortunately. Hearing the full spectrum of music is very important to me. So much so that my Audi did not add a “T” (telecoil) program to the Widex software, even after we discussed it.

Last night, I used my HAs only (no headphones) to watch a couple of YouTube videos on drum software sound libraries and a voice recording. The drums sounded thin and tinny. Drums are important for creating most music.

The voice recording sound through my HAs sounded a bit thin, but more importantly, the reviewer used a visual spectrum analyzer where you could see that a lot of the sound came from frequencies below 500 hz. And my HAs were not reproducing this.

Regarding trying out the Oticon More, that’s my short term goal. Especially after reading your posts and reading this Widex Evoke and Opticon Opn S1 Comparison. He demo’d both the Widex and Oticon HAs. And ultimately chose the Oticons.

One more thing about the review. The reviewer has a hearing problem and is blind. Check out his “About Me” page. VERY impressive.

Regarding the review, at 7908 words it is the longest, most detailed and honest review I’ve ever read on ANY product. Since I have the Widex Evoke and am looking at the Oticon More (the S1 Pro is the just-previous model to the More), the review is almost laser focused on my needs. He found issues with his Widex demos that I’ve encountered with mine (like wind noise). If you have the time and patience, it’s a must-read for anyone interested in Widex or Oticon HAs.

Since I’m heavily into music and headphones are critical to me, it’s critical that I resolve my current HA issues. Right now, I’m waiting for a call back from a local Audi who specializes in Oticons (and Starkeys). If they prove out during a demo, I’ll buy them immediately

Again, thanks for the feedback.

Dan.

[Volusiano]

@dan_public

Regarding the telecoil, using it would not meet my needs unfortunately. Hearing the full spectrum of music is very important to me. So much so that my Audi did not add a “T” (telecoil) program to the Widex software, even after we discussed it.

While it is correct that using the telecoil alone to listen to music is not enough, because it would only be the same thin and tinny quality as with streaming, and your HAs can never reproduce the lows that you want to hear from the HAs. BUT you’re forgetting that you’re not using the telecoil ALONE as a replacement to streaming. The whole reason you’re using telecoil here to begin with is because of / WITH the headphones, to minimize the feedback caused by using headphones. It’s not the telecoil pickup through the HAs that’s going to give you the lows you want to hear, it’s the headphones’ air transmission of the sound waves directly into your ear drums (not from the HAs) that’s going to give you the lows you need to hear. Your audi should have understood this and explained it fully to you in the first place.

And of course this would only help if you still have some good enough low frequency hearing left in your normal unaided hearing, which you do, at least somewhat with your right hearing.

[dan_public]

Volusiano,

Thanks again. Interesting point. Fortunately, my low frequency hearing is fairly good - especially on the right. What I don’t understand is why my Audi hasn’t set this up.

In any case, I will be setting up an appointment to Demo the Oticon More 1 today. Which brings up the cost issue.

One Audi I’ve been working with charges $6,998 for the More 1. Going through Zip Hearing, the cost is $4,799. I don’t mind a few hundred dollars difference, but $2,200 is over-the-top for me.

Have you (or anyone worked through Zip Hearing? Any issues?

Thanks,

Dan.

[gkumar]

Has anyone ever tried changing the rechargeable batteries on the More hearing aids and found out how much these rechargeable batteries cost? Ideally I’d like two pairs for traveling and whole working, just in case I forget to recharge overnight or if the battery level drops unexpectedly, almost like the disposable 312 batteries.

[Blacky]

@dan_public

What I don’t understand is why my Audi hasn’t set this up.

Because they probably don’t have a clue how things work.

Hell, until @Volusiano now clearly explained, I didn’t know how it works neither. This is the first explanation that mentions using tcoil setting from many posts I’ve read here.

If this works in my case, that means I didn’t have to buy aid for my normal hearing ear to have symmetrical sound or even the ability alone to send it to both ears for the streaming purposes
Two fitters and bunch of people here didn’t have a clue how to listen streaming with two ears if you wear one aid only. With main condition - having similar sound color, no feedback squeak and no latency issues.

When I put my aids under the headphones, if mics are on, squeak is here as well.

And I’ve dug deep before deciding for two aids as my solution, like 9 months of heavy engagement in figuring things out. Ok, I do have some other benefits, and main reason was to send the sound from roger mic to both ears anyway…

As you can see, I’m very interested in figuring it out unlike fitters who aren’t invested because they don’t have the personal need to really understand the tech (eg vast majority don’t wear aids)

Best thing your did for coping with your hearing loss was coming here. Keep reading a lot and things will settle in.

Also, review widex vs opns might not directly translate into widex vs more. No clue what this deep neural network will do to the sounds you want to hear. Keep that in mind while testing.

[Volusiano]

Thought I’d share a Genie 2 screen that shows the settings for the MoreSound Intelligence technology (the deep neural network) with some explanations on what all the settings and values mean. If you have a chance to review this first before you go into a More fitting with your HCP, maybe when they ask you how you want things set, you’ll be more prepared to communicate better to them.

[parth_p]

Yes later in 2021 means last quater 2021

[lello58]

I plan to change my old TV, and reading the various technical specifications, I saw that many have bluetooth: so with the More, or other HA that have bluetooth, will I be able to listen to the TV directly in the HA?

[Spindel]

You can always use the Oticon TV Adapter 3.0 with toslink from your TV (without Bluetooth). If you want to connect directly from the TV to the Oticon More, you should wait for a TV with Bluetooth 5.2 LE Audio (a new upcoming Bluetooth standard). Older Bluetooth versions have an annoying delay so the audio will be out of sync with the picture.

[Volusiano]

Beside the Oticon TV Adapter 3.0 that would not require the TV to have Bluetooth, and if you don’t want to wait for a TV that has the new BT 5.2 LE audio, you can also use the Oticon ConnectClip to bridge between you Bluetooth TV and your Oticon hearing aids (whether it be the More or the OPN S or OPN). I’ve used the ConnectClip on my laptop and Android phone without any appreciable delay. I’d expect it to perform the same on a standard Bluetooth supported TV.

[Luga]

Learn something new every day! Thanks for posting this. Sadly my OPN S1’s don’t have Tcoil… I do encounter feedback when I put on my over-the-ear headphones and resort to lowering the HA’s volume to get the richer music sound from the headphones plus some amplification from the HA’s. Next hearing aids will definitely have Tcoil if this works!

[Volusiano]

My OPN 1’s don’t have tcoil built-in either. Nevertheless, I’m still able to enable the AutoPhone mode (see the Genie 2 screenshots below), which can be enabled and adjusted for telephone (or headphones) use. I think it uses the small induction coil in the hearing aids dedicated for the Twinlink NFMI feature (Near Field Magnetic Induction) which is used by the left and right HAs to communicate to each other using close range magnetic induction.

So this small induction coil is enlisted for double usage also as a mini tcoil that when detecting the presence of a magnetic field near by (and most speakers in headphones or telephones generate a magnetic field), it’ll put the HAs into Autophone mode and pick up the magnetic waves of the sounds generated by the nearby magnetic speakers and convert it to sound signals to be sent to the receivers for you to hear.

So, ask your audi to turn on this Autophone mode for you (as seen in the screenshots below). Then put the headphones on and you should hear an Autophone chime on both ears once the magnetic field on your headphones’ speakers is detected. Now you should be able to hear from the headphones’s magnetic field to the mini coil (with original NFMI use purpose but now doubled as a tcoil) to the receivers to your ears. I would think if my OPN 1 has the AutoPhone mode, so would the OPN S1.

As for trying to avoid feedback when you put on your headphones, the OPN S1 should have the new OpenSound Optimizer feedback prevention technology, so if used in combination with the Feedback Shield manager, I thought it would have licked your feedback issue already. You may want to check with your audi that BOTH are enabled. I think the default is to just use the OpenSound Optimizer and have the Feedback Shield disabled.

[Luga]

@Volusiano, Thanks for sharing these details.

The technical data sheet for the OPN S does not list Autophone as one of the features (it is listed in the OPN sheet). Regardless I stopped over at the Audi to see if that is something that I could enable but no joy. The feature is not there.

I did verify that both feedback management features are also turned on. The HAs try to manage it fairly aggressively and what you end up hearing is a faint high pitch oscillating hum as the HAs compensate. My hearing loss is pretty steep in the high end so its not entirely surprising that i still get some feedback. I wear acrylic molds with a small vent to prevent occlusion.

I am generally happy with the OPN S and will sign up for a trial of the More’s next month when the insurance benefit kicks in again. I understand they support TCoil (and presumably Autophone) and are hopeful here. That would be a good improvement for me.

Many thanks again for sharing.

[Volusiano]

That’s too bad that the OPN S doesn’t support the AutoPhone feature like the OPN. The OPN S R (the rechargeable version has the tcoil in it. The More is rechargeable by default in the first release and therefore also has Tcoil.

As for your feedback issue, if it’s a high pitch oscillation hum, I wonder if you can use the Speech Rescue frequency lowering feature to get rid of it. It looks like your hearing loss can benefit from the frequency lowering feature anyway. Below is my screenshot for the Speech Rescue setting I use. You should probably select the same for your hearing loss, to use the lowest destination frequency setting. The part that may help eliminate the high frequency feedback is to turn the High Frequency Bands setting to OFF. If the high frequency feedback in your case takes place in this targeted band that’s lowered, turning it OFF will stop amplification in this band, which in turn can’t cause feedback if there’s no amplification going on. You’ll instead hear sounds originally coming from that band in the lowered destination band.