Comparing Oticon’s More 1 vs Intent 1

You do have a point here. The OPN technology is not DNN based, while the More is DNN based, and the Intent is DNN 2.0 based. However, I’ve always presumed that the creation of the DNN is to facilitate neural noise suppression for more speech understanding first and foremost. In other words, it finds a different way to do noise suppression through rebalancing (rather than through subtracting from a noise model like with the OPN).

I always presumed that the DNN was never about improving speech clarity even when neural noise suppression is not applied. After all, the DNN basically just breaks down the sound components in a sound scene and recreates it strictly for the purpose of making feasible the rebalancing of the now discrete sound components individually as an alternative approach for noise suppression. It has never about making all the sound components sound better than before per se even when there’s no noise suppression.

So are you saying that in an easy, quiet environment with no noise suppression activated at all, the sound quality in the More is still actually better than the sound quality in the OPN? I can buy that the sound quality in the Intent with the DNN 2.0 is better than the sound quality in the More with DNN 1.0. But I don’t understand why the DNN 1.0 sound quality would be any better than the OPN sound quality at all. After all, the OPN takes the sound from the input and spits it out “as is” to the output (assuming no noise suppression processing takes place at all in this scenario). So why would a DNN-based recreated sound component have a better sound quality than a direct copy of it from the input to the output (in the OPN case)?

Nevertheless, that’s all just a conjecture using theory. In practice, if you have the OPN and the More and the Intent, and your observation about their sound qualities are good/better/best respectively, then I believe you. I just want to make sure whether the scenario you described precludes any use of any noise suppression in your observation or not. Hence my question above for clarification on whether this observation is encased in the easy/simple environment where noise suppression is not factored in at all.

Using the analogy you started out with, maybe if we take a picture of a visual scene (let’s say it’s a day on the beach), the OPN gives you the whole picture, with EVERYTHING in the background included. But maybe with the More, let’s say if you cut out all the main figures and more visible figures from that picture, like the seagull flying, the tuba player playing in the background, the people walking or playing ball or sun tanning on the beach, the water from the ocean, the sun setting in the backdrop, etc., and you reassemble them all back together into a blank page, those cut-out figures might stand out more because some of the background visuals may be lost or lessened, like the sand of the beach, or the blue sky with some clouds, or the distant mountain in the corner of the bay, etc. Meaning that the cut-out figures now “pops out” more by themselves, hence the perception of clearer quality, compared to the original sound scene displayed by the OPN “as is”.

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Please note that all I say is empirical and with a sample size of 1 (myself). I appreciate the depth of knowledge you provide, especially when elaborating on technical details. So much going on to make this Oticon concept fly… In response to your question, as you may recall, my music programs are set to a raw, basic configuration, with most of the advanced functionality turned off. Yes, I find that the Mores are incrementally better than the OPNs in those specific situations. However, all in all, the Mores are a good step ahead the OPNs.

Yes, that is very well put. Thanks for the analogy.

Edit: btw, I just returned from busy, crowded gym with obnoxiously loud music playing in the background. I wanted to test out the Intents there… and my P1 proved to be just enough. I had no issues receiving instructions from the coach or engaging in conversations with people around me. Didn’t even feel the need to experiment with my speech in noise program. It’s so much better than my OPNs, which are currently my go-to hearing aids for the gym.

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Do you mind my asking why your OPNs are your go-to hearing aids for the gym when you have the More’s as well?

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My Mores will become my backup and go-to hearing aids for the gym if I end up buying the Intents (which at this point I am very inclined to do). If you are asking why I don’t just use my main hearing aids (Mores) at the gym, it’s because I try to avoid the sweat and clogging of the receivers. Just a bit of caution, I guess. Moreover, I also like to keep the old ones running, even if only a few hours a week, so that they won’t break or something like that.

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This could have very negative repercussions for musicians, or music lovers, since the lower tier level does not have the Clear Dynamics function, which as you know had limited input headroom, and would cause clipping.
Tier 1 & 2 have Clear Dynamics.

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I felt the same way at first, but if you use speech rescue for a while, your brain will adjust and stop noticing the odd “s” and “sh”. In my experience, it really helps my hearing to have it on, and the s/sh went completely away after some time.

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Thanks! I can’t hear much past ~4 kHz with the 85 dB receivers on my right ear. I am going to give it another try when I am done with my trial. However, I feel like I probably won’t really need it for speech comprehension with the Intents.

My nightmare restaurant is Texas Roadhouse.

WH

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I’ve put the Intents through some challenging situations by now, and I’ve noticed that they help me focus on the people I’m looking at and talking to in noisy places. It might be due to the sensors, since with my music program, which doesn’t use them, I feel I lose that edge. It’s a neat and helpful feature.

New hearing aids often come with a new audiogram, new setup, and sometimes new acoustics. Incremental improvements could be mostly due to those factors. However, I am experiencing more than that with the Intents. I am actually having the best hearing experience in decades. It feels really good, to be honest :slight_smile:. The Intents are not perfect though—connectivity with Oticon hearing aids is subpar, and speech in noise is always a challenge—but they are really good.

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Thanks for the follow-up on this. That’s great to hear that the 4D Sensors feature is not a gimmick but actually has some tangible value. I had my doubts about the 4D Sensors’ value, but it seems to be cast away with each new report. It’s very positive so far that from almost every user sharing their experience with the Intent, I think everybody thinks that it’s a significant enough improvement and not just a generational incremental improvement.

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It’s kinda funny after my long journey with my previous music programs, but I really like my P1 for music – at least in a reasonably quiet space where the hearing aids are not suppressing noise and messing things up. It sounds nice for both streaming and live music, and my classical and acoustic guitars resonate pretty well too. To be quite honest, with the Intents, I feel like I don’t really need to change programs. This P1 seems to be the closest I’ve ever had to a real jack of all trades :slight_smile:

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WOW!! Coming from you, that is a massive positive for the Intent of what you’re saying!
I mean it’s Real(ly) More than I could have hoped for!
If I get them I’ll OPN a bottle of champagne if they can wow me!

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Not having to change programs is one of my wishes for my INTENT1 aids when i get them.

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Solid grounds for banning @flashb1024 right there.

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Overall I still prefer my dedicated music programs but this P1 is pretty decent! Better than MyMusic for sure :joy:

Edit: I don’t feel the need to switch to my dedicated music program if I am not doing some serious listening or playing my guitars. My P1 delivers a rich experience, blending music and conversations in a very pleasant way.

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It would be so beautiful to not open programs. It takes minutes every time I do it. And I drive during the day. I can’t be pulling out my phone to use the App to see what I’m finally in.

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When I am driving my phone goes in do not disturb

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It seems that you are like me, like reading through all of their whitepapers!

My guess for the cause of this difference:

  1. it is possible that the underlying architecture has something different, like the actual number of channels (not the fitting channels). Those could be something not explicitly mentioned in the whitepapers.

  2. In Opn’s whitepaper, the Open Navigator and Noise Reduction are always ON, though they do analysis 500 times per second to determine the right amount of noise suppression. However, since More on, they do not use the Spatial Balancer (play the same role as the Open Navigator) at all in easy listening environment, just the Virtual Outer Ear.

On your point #2 above, it might help to differentiate the 2 types of noise reduction that the OPN does. First, there is the MVDR (minimum variance distortion-less response) type beam forming that is in the Balance module to attenuate dominant noise sources as shown in the 2 screenshots below (the cars are the dominant noise sources in this example). This type of MVDR beamforming noise reduction inside the Balance module is indeed always on.


However, there is another type of noise reduction to clean up the speech of diffused noise, which can be seen in the first screenshot above in the final Noise Removal block. This is the Noise Reduction parameter available in the OpenSound Navigator that CAN BE DISABLED and doesn’t have to be always on. In fact, it is disabled in the built-in OPN Music program.

In the More and Real and Intent, they renamed the OPN Balance module into the Spatial Balancer, but it still has the same MVDR beamforming application in there just the same. But you’re correct that it’s only in the flow path of the Difficult environment and not Easy environment. It’s not that much different anyway, because while the OPN doesn’t separate out an Easy and a Difficult flow path, there shouldn’t be any dominant noise sources in the Easy environment in the first place, so the MVDR beamforming noise reduction shouldn’t be activated anyway due to the lack of dominant noise sources in the Easy environment after all.

A few more things I noticed about the Intents (I’ve been wearing them for 30 days now):

  • As I mentioned, my music program sounds very similar in both the Intents and the Mores, perhaps with slightly more resolution with the Intents. The biggest difference is that music is good enough with my P1. I still have two dedicated slots for my crafted music programs (one for my guitars and one for everything else music), but I feel like I might be able to get by with just one now.
  • I have more awareness of the direction sound is coming from with the Intents. Maybe the new receivers help with that? Or the 4D sensors?
  • I have my P1 now set up with DSL (previously it was VAC+). I have this new P1 with the same target gains I had for the old VAC+ program, minus 2dB. It sounds better, more natural, and I get extra sharpness and clarity of voices, as well as better understanding of speech in noisy situations.
  • I probably wouldn’t need the tier 1 of Oticon hearing aids. I have dialed down 2dB of neural noise suppression from Genie’s targets in my P1 and in the speech-in-noise program. So that leaves me with 6dB suppression in my P1 and 8dB in the SIN program. However, since I need “clear dynamics,” I can’t go lower than tier 2 either.
  • On the longest days, I put them in the charger with about 40% battery life left. Definitely better than what I had with the Mores when I first got them.

The Intents are clearly better than the Mores in some respects (speech in noise, audio balance between my two ears, sound direction, clarity and separation of sounds in the soundscape, and battery life) and incrementally better in others (live and streamed music, sound in quiet, and the naturalness of the sound I hear). When I say “clearly,” I don’t mean a game-changer scenario, like introducing the iPhone after the old flip phones. It’s just that I hear those differences, and they all help in my daily routine and activities. The Intents also have a “sound equalizer” in the app that is a great improvement over the Mores, as I can adjust it on the go and later implement those changes in Genie 2.

On the other hand, the Intents do not yet have a “smart charger” like the one I have for my Mores, and their firmware is not completely stable – the hearing aids keep freezing from time to time. As for connectivity with a mobile phone, they share the same issues; Oticon is still behind its competitors in this area.

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