What is the expected battery lifetime of Phonak Roger Select?

Hearing Aids
#21

@jim_lewis
https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

Check table 2.

Tell me if I got it now correctly.

If I read correctly, when it says dod 100% that means full charge and full discharge. And that gives 600 cycles. Let’s assume 1 full battery gives us 10h of work for simplified calculations.

That means that you’ll get 600 cycles * 10h = 6000 working hours of that battery.

However, dod 10% means you’ll get just 10% of the battery working for you(simplified), so 1h of work, so total 15000h. Also, you should cycle between 90% of battery and 100%. Since cycle is always to the full.

So, table
Dod 10% 1h x15000 = 15000h (full battery when 90%)
Dod 20% 2h x9000 = 18000
Dod 40% 4h x3000 = 12000
Dod 60% 6h x1500 = 9000 (fill bat when reaches 40% left)
Dod 80% 8h x900 = 7200
Dod 100% 10h x600 = 6000 (fill when empty)

So this means that the best would be to fill battery to the full once it shows 80 % left.
If you do it at 40% left you’ll get 1.5 times longer life, or double life if you don’t allow your battery to go below 60%…

But when you fill the battery you should go to the full, this table is only about how low it can get.

Did i understand the numbers correctly now?

I think I’ve inverted something in my mind earlier.

#22

I think the following is the sort of lifetime performance curve I’m thinking of for HA or HA accessory Li-ion batteries. It seems to show that the more charge you take out during one usage cycle (1.0 C vs 0.2 C) the shorter the total number of full-equivalent discharge cycles you get out of the battery (from why-does-the-lithium-battery-capacity-decrease

image

(bad things happen to Li-ion battery electrodes in the fully charged state or in the completely discharged state so it’s supposedly better to take partial discharges out of somewhere in the middle of the battery charge/discharge voltage curve - which is NOT the graph shown above)

I actually have more experience killing Li-ion batteries than I have so far extending their useful lifetime, e.g. running laptops with removable Li-ion battery in hot device always being charged to 100% while laptop runs on AC power and, also, charging smartphone continually on window sill exposed to direct hot sunlight! :slightly_smiling_face:

And whether one uses one’s HA’s or accessories or not, a Li-ion battery is going to age just sitting around, no matter what. At least 1% capacity loss at year even if stored an near-ideal room temperature conditions and ~50% charge. So that alone places an upper-limit on how long might my Quattro’s and ReSound accessories might last on the shelf someday as my backup hearing aids.

#23

Yeah, from this link I’ve linked I’m not sure if they’re saying it’s ‘full cycle equivalent’ or ‘this short cycles’. I think it’s the latter. Because it just seems crazy to get 15000 full cycle equivalent lifetime if you keep your battery between 90% and 100% full :rofl:

I do try not to leave it to die, so if I notice at 20% or less, it’ll definitely go into the charger.
But it’s just that numbers are easy to track on phone if you want to be battery-mindful, but for roger select you have just 3 colors or you’d have to time it.

Yes, they’re not cheap devices, but I mean, nothing today is made to last forever anyway :frowning: I somehow take that into the account when I’m buying something in the first place. And ability to change battery for select definitely sounds better than for other mics where I’ve heard official exchange isn’t possible.
Biggest portion of the select price is R&D anyway + profit of your seller, not hardware, so I wouldn’t expect that battery would cost me nowhere near 1000 eur like new device costs.

But, interesting things I’ve learned here, thanks :smiley:

1 Like
#24

I personally wouldn’t recommend any Roger Select owner keep the device between 90% and 100% charged. Microsoft provided a good example of why not to do this. They tried to promote Surface devices as the “brains” behind kiosks. The devices were set to run on AC, charging the Li-ion battery to 100% all the time. The devices did not hold up so well. So Microsoft introduced a firmware update intended to be applied to kiosk usage devices. It keeps the device at 50% charged when running on AC and the Li-ion battery lifespan lasts longer. At 100% charged and 4.2 volts applied, you get oxidation of the anode much more rapidly and much more rapid deterioration of the long-term lifespan of the battery. It would probably be far better, if possible, to let a device like Roger Select cycle through some part of its full discharge cycle rather than keeping it close to 100% or letting it discharge fully until the red light comes on.

One difficulty in discussing this topic is there are a number of slightly different Li battery chemistries and it’s never clear exactly what type of battery is in what device or exactly what type of battery a particular performance curve applies to and how much the phenomena observed apply to somewhat different Li battery chemistries. Hopefully, the tremendous push to build electric cars is going to bring new battery chemistries that benefit HA users indirectly so OEM’s like Phonak cannot only recover their development and production costs in an expensive relatively low-market saturation device like Roger Select but also reward the users who choose such a great device with a long, long battery lifespan without having to worry about replacement options.

#25

My simplified “grasp” of this matter is that Lithium ion batteries of assorted chemistries will likely last the longest if kept between 50-80% charge. However, what if the manufacturer has already set it to top out at 80% charge, knowing it will last longer? I think Tesla has a couple of different charge levels–one for day to day to use and one for max range. It’s nice to be able to use the full battery capacity if one needs it, but it does make sense to prolong the life of the battery if it can be made simple.

2 Likes
#26

On the lifespan of Li-ion (and/or Li-polymer batteries) in Phonak Roger Select or any other such HA device, as I’ve previously mentioned, Apple seems to be one of the big companies most on the ball about TLC in charging and advising and caring for their customers to get the maximum usable lifespan out of (expensive!) Apple devices.

I happen to notice in upgrading my wife’s 2015 iPhone 6S to iOS 14.2 that if one goes to Settings, Battery, Battery Health, that down at the bottom of the Battery Health page there is a section and option that you can check on or not entitled “Optimized Battery Charging.” The feature came along with iOS 13 - but I never noticed 'til now in just starting to use an iPhone as an “iPod.”

From the Apple web page on optimized charging, here’s what it says

With iOS 13 and later, Optimized Battery Charging is designed to reduce the wear on your battery and improve its lifespan by reducing the time your iPhone spends fully charged. When the feature is enabled, your iPhone will delay charging past 80% in certain situations. Your iPhone uses on-device machine learning to learn your daily charging routine so that Optimized Battery Charging activates only when your iPhone predicts it will be connected to a charger for an extended period of time. The algorithm aims to ensure that your iPhone is still fully charged when unplugged.

Basically what this means is akin to the following. It only takes a few hours to fully charge your phone (even less if you use more recent USB-C Power Delivery options or similar for wireless charging). But why go to bed, say to sleep 10 hours, have the phone charge fully in 1 or 2 hours, and spend the rest of the night at 100% charge, being depleted slightly as it idles during the night, recharged continually around 100%, wearing out the battery through unnecessary constant mini-charge loops near 100%. Not good for Li-ion/-polymer batteries.

The following How to Geek article goes into detail relative to what’s at stake with charging Li-ion/-polymer batteries: https://www.howtogeek.com/423451/how-ios-13-will-protect-your-iphones-battery-by-charging-to-80/

From the article, here’s how Apple tries to extend your iOS device battery lifespan with Optimized Battery Charging:

In iOS 13, a new charging algorithm will keep your iPhone at 80% when charging overnight. That algorithm will determine when you typically wake up and start the day, and restart the charging sequence to give you a fully charged battery when you wake up.

Maybe someday makers of rechargeable HA devices and accessories will put some of the same smarts into their overnight charging schemes - or even if you want, allow you to set your own upper limit no matter what your schedule, i.e., specify that you just don’t need to charge over 80% - allowing you to go with your particular needs and desires rather than what the OEM figures the average gal/guy wants, no matter what.

#27

I have used roger products for about 5 years, I am on my second table mic (though the first one still works), I have a roger pen and got a roger select 2 years ago.

Don’t do what I did…

My select has been in its cradle attached to my TV and continuously charging since I retired 18 months ago, and today the battery died.

It is like a bereavement.

Does anyone have any idea what kind of battery I need, and where I could get it changed? It is out of warranty.

Thank you!

Shari

#28

Phonak can replace the battery, for a big fee, but-----

If you are only using it for the TV then just get a TV connect, better and cheaper.

#30

Don’t older aids have similar device, under different name, tv link or something like that? :thinking:

#31

Leaving a Li-ion battery continuously charging near 100% charge is not good for the long-term lifespan of the Li-ion battery. In the future, it would be better to pick a partial charge range with the average state of charge somewhere around 50%, say 30% to 70%. I’ve made numerous posts on the forum about this (including quite a few earlier in this thread!). It’s often not very practical since owners usually find it easiest just to charge their devices to 100%, use the charge until the battery is very run-down before recharging again and OEM’s love selling you new devices. Some manufacturers like Apple are very conscientious about helping the user get maximum battery lifespan and have excellent battery care advice on their support websites. Hopefully someday even devices like cell phones and hearing aids and their accessories will have the battery management smarts they put into electric vehicles, where a single battery can cost around $20,000. (price coming down and energy density, vehicle range going up - GM just in the news about this). About battery health management in Mac notebooks and earlier in this thread: What is the expected battery lifetime of Phonak Roger Select?

How to connect a ReSound Linx2 to a Windows 10 computer
#32

Just to point out, this select didn’t go to 0%, but was always fluctuating around 100% since it never left the cradle.

#33

Best way to prolong lithium battery is charge it b/w 40 to 80 percent . It will double or triple the charge cycles

2 Likes
#34

@sharibull

This is my worry as I’ve just got the Select and when I watch TV, it’s also charging.

#35

I’m SO impressed with the Roger Select over the Pen in terms of putting it in the middle of the table.

Miles ahead of the Pen.

So glad I found a brand new Select on FB marketplace.

4 Likes
#36

Pen and Select are different and used in different ways. But agree that Select is more advanced. The Table Mic is even more advanced and more powerful.

#37

Have you had an opportunity to try the Roger ON in table mode? I wonder how it compares to the select.

#38

@6407e298f4620849dae6

I have. I don’t know why but the Select sounds better for me in terms of also not picking up excess background noise.

I’ve been trying to find out how many Microphones the On uses in table mode to see why it sounds different to the Select.

Google is not giving me the answers so far.

#39

I think the Roger Select has 3 (not 6 as indicated by @MDB ) microphones, while the Roger on has got 4.

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Any chances of link where one can a cheap Select and what price we would expect to pay?

1 Like
#40

Good to know. I rarely use pointing mode so maybe the Select is a better choice. Is Distant speaker mode with a lanyard on par with the On and Pen? Thanks

#41

@6407e298f4620849dae6

The pointing mode is loads better with the On. The Pen is still good but the On is better.

The only thing that fails with the Pen is table mode / laying it flat. That’s awful.

@Baltazard

Thanks for letting me know that the On has 4 microphones.

I got my Select off Facebook Marketplace.