Trying Phonak Ambra nano's and new Virto Q - Need Advice!

Hearing Aids
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#1

Hi there,

I’m new to the HA world and would like to thank everyone here for this wonderful site and all the information people post here!

First my short story , I’m a young cancer survivor (17+ months in remission) i was diagnosed with advanced testicular cancer when i was 25 , spent around four years in-out hospitals and did many surgeries and heavy chemo treatments, including two bone morrow transplants (HIGH DOSE Chemo). The first chemo treatment’s i did were mildly ototoxic but the High dose one had high oto-toxicity and did considerable damage to my hearing , so basically i lost some hearing at the beginning but it wasn’t until the High Dose chemo that Oncologists told me i would be losing significant High Frequency hearing.

So i guess most of you know the drill here , I cant understand TV unless i crank the volume high , music is considerably muffled and the Treble knob on my car is useless. Going to the Movies is a frustrating experience , waitresses and females are difficult to understand etc etc. I can hold conversations with people on a table of 6 but if there’s background noise or more than one person speaking i get lost.

My lifestyle is pretty demanding , I’m 29 years old now and back to university life , i go out three times a week (Bar’s , Lounges , Clubs with earplugs on). Lots of social gatherings with friends (with loud background noise all the time) I’m also outside the house in noisy environments (urban setting) 70% of my waking hours. Fast forward i finally decided to see an Audi clinic , i picked a big name one , they have branches all over the state where i live (don’t know if that’s good or bad?). The audi is a young female she seems very friendly and knowledgeable. I asked her to recommend the brand shes mostly experienced with and she suggested Phonak which was one of my top choices anyway , she also added that Sound Recover from Phonak would be an excellent benefit for my case.

She recommended Ambra microBTE’s saying it would be better than the nano IIC i requested because they wouldn’t block my ears like the nanos and allow me to hear more. So i had to choose between Ambra CIC or microBTE.
Given my young age im very uncomfortable with visible aid’s , especially when i lost most of my hair and have a top balding spot, im afraid its going be even harder to cope with my new look if i add visible HA’s. However im willing to try the BTE’s if they show me considerable advantage over the CIC’s/nano’s.

We ended up agreeing that i try the CIC’s for 15 days and the mBTE’s for another 15 days and make a choice. She called me the day after telling me she discussed my case with her supervisor and fellow audi’s and decided that the nano’s would be possible because i have a big ear canal , i gave the OK. Obviously the price is very steep (7300$) but i get 4 years full service and warranty , if i lose them i can have a replacement for 10% value but first year only. 50% off batteries for 5 years comes up to 8$ per month. I’m desperate enough to hear properly again that im willing to sell my favorite motorcycle and get in debt for it.

My benchmark for testing these HA’s would be my real hearing. I only lost it almost a year ago and still remember exactly how everything around me sounded. I still live in the same place , use the same car and generally know how my environment used to sound pretty well. I used to be a picky person when it comes to sound ,i could tell when my car needed oil topping from its engine noise , or if there was a nail in my tire from tire noise…etc

I was fitted last week with the Ambra Nano’s and im quit impressed! i really had a very bad expectation thinking this whole HA business is gimmicks “anyone heard Bose’s magical sound yet ;)” but for now this is pretty close to my former hearing! I spent three days with both of them , i had some occlusion issues with the right one and it has been sent back after taking a second impression of my right ear. here are my initial observations:

  • At first it was overwhelming she had to turn down the sound-recover , her printer behind her desk sounded right beside me!

  • Everything immediately came to life and her voice was rich , compared to the muffled voice before.

-I started hearing a lot of things very close to what i used to when i walked outside , people walking , kids speaking on the other-side of the street.

-Papers at my desk and floor sound very familiar , but was a bit more high pitched than what im used to , she re-calibrated and got it fixed!

-Im astonished at how natural the sound is to my ears! i was expecting something metallic or whatever people were talking about here on the forums.

-Went to a favorite FiveGuys burger joint with friends , its usually pretty noisy with loud music , its like the place comes alive when i put them on and i can hear the kitchen and the fry cooker just like before! i was able to carry on a good conversation , heared the guy call our order number from all the way at the back of the restaurant (I was ecstatic!)

- We just had high winds yesterday coming from NY’s Sandy mess (I live in Montreal) and it sounded very natural to me , nothing more or less from wind noise when i used to run during sports or windy days.

So far so good , this week i come here and i read Phonak just released the Virto Q with updated software (Quest) and available program control, I just discovered that my Ambra Nano doesn’t have all the bells and whistles the BTE one has , its a “bare-bone” unit as people like to call it here. I’m especially interested with the auto zoom and the whole “Binaural VoiceStream Technology” package the new one comes with! I would like to see if its any different from my Ambra Nano’s when it comes to very noisy environments while talking to a number of friends at the same time! Im gona tell my Audi to order them asap on the next visit. This whole thing is getting me more excited than the first Iphone release!

I have supplied my Hearing loss graph’s , a pic of the Ambra nano in my ear for future reference and a picture of the HA against a Canadian quarter. Look for (Silver_Cat2012) profile on flickr! :slight_smile:

Any comments , advise would be well appreciated!

Thank You!

Invisible IIC Pros and Cons
#2

So i went to my hospital’s audiologist to test my hearing aid , i only had the left side on. She told me they worked great and greatly improved speech discrimination tests , i got 70% speech discrimination for recorded content , up from average 45. Spoken speech discrimination is 90! , she used a paper full of high frequency words that were really hard to understand but i did very well. So far I’m very happy with what one piece can do.

Today i saw my audi and returned my Ambra’s. She told me she would let me know when i can get The new Virto Q(90). Apparently she has a training session on Nov 22nd for the new Target 3 software.

I hope i wont wait long without aids :frowning:

#3

Great post!
Good to read, how much the nanos could improve on your hearing! I think it was a great choice, it fits well to your loss.
It would be great, if you could try the BTE version as well: i wonder, if they really overperform the ITE models.
Keep us pls updated! :slight_smile:

#4

Yes, please keep us updated. I’m a husband of a wife who has hearing loss from birth. I’m VERY interested in hearing more from someone who had hearing and is trying to regain it. It’s avery different perspective from most who never had it.

#5

A little update:

The Phonak Bolero (RIC) seems to be available early summer , i don’t want to wait that long so i talked with my audi about the new Siemens Ace (RIC) , she called Siemens and they said i can have it somewhere in mid December.

I like the tiny size of the Siemens Ace and and the fact its water and dust proof (IPX7 water resistance and IP6X full dust proof). It also has a tinnitus nosier , im not sure if it would help my tinnitus but will give it a try. My tinnitus is high but it doesn’t seem to bother me as my brain seems to have learned to ignore it i guess.

So the plan is to try the Phonak premium Virto Q(90) nano’s (IIC) in early December then the Siemens Ace (RIC) and make a choice. I really want an aid that can be as close as my former hearing. I will test the aids vigorously (Bar’s , College , Restaurant , etc) and report which one has a more natural sound and performs better.

I have some questions if anyone would know or care answering them:

1- Does the Phonak Virtu Q (90) nano’s communicate with each other wirelessly to adjust sound? on the brochure it states they have the full “Binaural VoiceStream Technology®” but then it states they don’t have wireless capability. I’m getting confused here…

2- The Phonak Virto’s have “OMNI” mics and not directional mic’s , while the siemens (RIC) has directional mic’s , Is there a significant benefit with having directional mic’s? or is that something one can only know after trying them out?

3- For Siemens , The Ace (RIC) utilizes micon best sound techonology. Is micon better than XCEL sound technology? which one has more features i cant understand the difference between the two sound tech’s on the Siemens website.

#6

Phonak Virto Q has 4 models:

Virto Q-nano
Virto Q-10
Virto Q-312
Virto Q-13.

These numbers are their battery numbers. Biggest is 13 smallest is 10. Virto Q-nano also use battery number 10. Unfortunately only Q-312 and Q-13 support wireless technology and Directional Microphone. Also Q-312 and Q-13 have Binaural VoiceStream Technology. I don’t know the difference between omni and directional microphones exactly. But you can assume the bigger hearing aids have usually better technology. I don’t know anything about Siemens Ace. Sorry.

I also wait for Virto Q-312. If you have any experience with them, please will share us. You can get more information from phonakpro website.(I can’t give a link because of site rules)

#7

Why don’t you look at the Unitron Moxy Pro? I’m pretty sure the tech is the same as the Phonak Bolero RIC that won’t be out until next year.

#8

It’s already hard enough to figure out which software and features are included and not included on Phonak’s aid’s ! besides, I’d rather try different technologies (Siemens , Oticon) and see which one works for me best.

As of now i looked everywhere on Phonakpro websites and cant get any information on what features are missing on the Virto nano and Q-10’s. Its a shame that they include the Nano’s within their Quest marketing material , the virto Q(90) is mentioned all over the “Binaural VoiceStream Technology” [SIZE=2]brochures. While they only mention that the Nano’s are NOT wireless without specifically listing which features are missing. I can only wonder how many non-tech savvy people are being lied to! im guessing its a significant portion of buyers.

I went to another clinic and ordered Oticon Intiga RIC. I[SIZE=2]m gona have to put another significant [SIZE=2]down-payment just to try them.

So the plan now is to try the Intiga’s first , i should be receiving them before the end of this month and it looks like i will be testing them along side the Phonak Nano Q(90)'s during December.[/SIZE][/SIZE]
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#9

This is pretty much as Uniron are describing it.

Phonak appear to have ‘borrowed’ the Unitron zoom and noise management functionality in the Quest platform ( or Spice++) as they should have called it, given that the firmware is based on the same chip with a few incremental software enhancements and an improved wind noise manager.

Style over substance, perhaps…

#10

I would recommend you do more research before you set up another appointment with anybody.

start out by learning what a cic, ite, ric and bte are. Also write what situations you need the help most in terms of using the aids. I suspect it’s to hear people in noise. if you want a discreet aid then make that known too. But I got to warn you that asking for something super discreet and speech in noise performance is like asking for a sports car that goes off road too.

it takes a while to understand where each company places its information and how to interpret it as they all do it differently. and plus you need to know hearing aids to interpret all this.

Think all your questions regarding the virto aids are in this document. Aids are separated in 2 different categories. via the battery (10, 312, 13) they accept and the level of features (50, 70, 90). what complicates things more is that some of the features like stereozoom are only available with “wireless” support. “wireless” for new users probably means bluetooth, but to phonak it means their proprietary communication protocol used to communicate between aids and the remote. not compatible with bluetooth.

So to get all the features you need at least an aid that accepts a 312 battery AND has wireless support. Note you can get a 312 supported aid that does not support wireless.

Now this brings up an issue. You obviously want a discreet aid. will a half shell ite aid be discreet enough for you? IMO a half shell ite aid is just as noticeable as a ric aid.

http://www.phonakpro.com/content/dam/phonak/gc_hq/b2b/en/products/hearing_instruments/product_families/virto-q/_documents/Product_Information_Virto_Q_027-0088.pdf

#11

Thank’s for your reply. I have already researched HA styles and know what the abbreviations (BTE, CIC , ITC etc) mean. As i stated on my first post im a young urban dweller who spends 80% of his social , study and work time in noisy environments. So my three equally important criteria are:

  • Understanding speech in noisy Environments (Bar’s , Parties , Events etc)
  • Regaining my former natural hearing (as close to it as possible)
  • Discreetness

I understand my requirements stumble on a major issue with HA’s: the more discreet they are the less performance. The Audis i met recommended micro RIC HA’s as they offer discreetness and maximum performance. However having never worn one before im not sure if they will sound as natural as the Micro-CIC’s and the IIC.

Correct me if I’m wrong but I understand that the latter aids (CIC/IIC) utilize the ear’s natural anatomy to deliver a more natural sound. My initial experience with the Ambra Nano’s was positive with regards to the natural sound issue.

I don’t like half-shells and ITE models from a style and age prospective. I’d rather have the tiny IRC models , however I’m not sure about those either because i never wore any of them yet.

I have ordered the Oticon Intiga 10 (RIC) and will be testing them along with the Phonak Virto nano’s. So my strategy is to see whats the difference in sound between them (which one delivers a more natural sound) and how well they preform in noisy environments. If I choose the more discreet option (Phonak Nano’s) I need to know how much performance I’m compromising to achieve more discreetness.

Attached is the picture of the Phonak nano’s (Ambra) that i returned. The Virto’s should be similar in size and fit when i get them.

Are these Nano’s considered micro-CIC or IIC? My Audi told me she doesn’t want to place them any deeper in my canal because it would block the lower frequencies where i have a minimal loss. Is she correct ? or can i pursue a more discreet HA like the Sound-Lens? (She said i have a big ear canal)

#12

Thank’s for your reply. I have already researched HA styles and know what the abbreviations (BTE, CIC , ITC etc) mean. As i stated on my first post I’m a young urban dweller who spends 80% of his social , study and work time in noisy environments. So my three equally important criteria are:

  • Understanding speech in noisy Environments (Bar’s , Parties , Events etc)
  • Regaining my former natural hearing (as close to it as possible)
  • Discreetness

I understand my requirements stumble on a major issue with HA’s: the more discreet they are the less performance. The Audis i met recommended micro RIC HA’s as they offer discreetness and maximum performance. However having never worn one before im not sure if they will sound as natural as the Micro-CIC’s and the IIC.

Correct me if I’m wrong but I understand that the latter aids (CIC/IIC) utilize the ear’s natural anatomy to deliver a more natural sound. My initial experience with the Ambra Nano’s was positive with regards to the natural sound issue.

I don’t like half-shells and ITE models from a style and age prospective. I’d rather have the tiny IRC models , however I’m not sure about those either because i never wore any of them yet.

I have ordered the Oticon Intiga 10 (RIC) and will be testing them along with the Phonak Virto nano’s. So my strategy is to see whats the difference in sound between them (which one delivers a more natural sound) and how well they preform in noisy environments. If I choose the more discreet option (Phonak Nano’s) I need to know how much performance I’m compromising to achieve more discreetness.

Attached is the picture of the Phonak nano’s (Ambra) that i returned. The Virto’s should be similar in size and fit when i get them.

Are these Nano’s considered micro-CIC or IIC? My Audi told me she doesn’t want to place them any deeper in my canal because it would block the lower frequencies where i have a minimal loss. Is she correct ? or can i pursue a more discreet HA like the Sound-Lens? (She said i have a big ear canal)

#13

Sorry for the double post. For some reason i could not see my reply and decided to post it again. Now i see them both , bummer :S

#14

phonak came out with something called stereozoom. more below.

now with their latest offering you can get a remote bluetooth microphone with your aid.

but the above feature probably requires like I wrote before at least a half shell ite aid. imo a ite aid is pointless as it is not that discreet so might as well get the bte or ric aid and not compromise on battery power and performance from your aid.

does the shape of your ear help? yes but only a little bit. I know as I’ve worn ite aids for 10 years. but regret doing so.

To be honest I would have trialed a cic from oticon vs a phonak bolero or a phonak ambra. I am not sure about the oticon cics but their rite aids are known for their speech in noise performance. but would imagine their cics may perform better than most other cics on the market.

phonak bolero or ambra because they are not ric aids but traditional bte aids. you can get them in a smaller form factor with slim tubes. and the reason to avoid rics? bte tend to have higher gain and less feed back issues. they have done away with feed back issues with ric’s but I believe this is done at the expense of battery power that could be used to actually hear people. also having a microphone up against your ear drum will rewire your brain to the point where you will prefer this setup. rics users r typically former cic or ite users because they sound more “natural” to them.

the most important reason to try the larger phonak is because of stereozoom. it is consider by most to be the premier solution for hearing in noise. if you know anything about microphone arrays, the more mics you include the better. phonak figured out how to stream sounds between aids so now their aids able to use all 4 microphones (2 per aid) together.

now for the why to try the bigger aids. you are like many other posters who come here and tell us your story. we tell you to go for performance but as always the new posters goes for discreet. I went for discreet with my first major purchase of an aid. that was a huge mistake. in hindsight my inability to hear in difficult situations was more obvious than the attention an object hanging from my ear would have generated. This stereozoom will not improve your hearing as much as you will hope. I mean compare to cics I would imagine you will go from hearing 3 out 10 words to 5 out of 10 words in very difficult hearing situations. but hearing those 2 extra words will give you a fighting chance. you hearing will only get worse. and your youth will only disappear.

I assure you that the absolute 100% sure fire way of attaining social isolation is by not being able to follow a conversation. yes some will be turned off by the aid in you ear. but all will be turned off if you can’t hear them.

#15

With your hearing loss and demanding listening environments RIC’s are the only way to go. Maximum comfort and you will hear low frequencies naturally. The benefit of directional mics and features like stereozoom (on Phonak devices) can be appreciated as well. Lots of good RIC’s on the market as well.

#16

Thank you all for your feedback , i really appreciate it.

I called my Audi and inquired about the micro Bolero (BTE) , she looked at their fitting diagrams and told me with slim tubes it doesn’t really fit my hearing loss. She said it doesn’t adequately cover my high-frequency loss and the RIC model would be a much better choice for me. Attached below is Bolero’s smaller model , Q-M312 fitting chart: (Note: Darker Area is for Slim-Tube fitting)


About re-wiring my brain , I’ve never worn Hearing Aids before.I’m assuming that i have a much better sense of what “Natural Hearing” is since i just lost my hearing a very short-while ago. And since I was always “conscious” of my sound environment as i mentioned earlier , I tend to think i would have a better judgment of what hearing aid technology or style would best sound more “natural”.

It seems I’m more likely to end up with a (RIC) after trying the Oticon Intiga 10’s (more about it below) , However , i would like to give the new premium Virto CIC’s a chance and better testing to really see what’s the difference between them all.

So right now I will try the Phonak Audeo S Smart IX RIC -The one that has ALL features- , against the best Oticon model , Intiga 10. I chose the Intiga instead of the Agil mini because i learned they basically have the same performance , except for possibility of a more powerful future fitting possibility for the Agil model. I have a small outer ear (Pinna) and i have lost most of my hair due to chemo treatments , so a mini RIC would be ideal and the max limit i could tolerate for wearing a visible aid.

Now on to the Oticon Intiga 10 (RIC) initial review! :slight_smile:

Attached is the fitting chart for the Intiga , along with some pictures of it:



The “Acoustician” fitted me using a custom micro-mold .So far it has been three days with the Intiga’s , the first day was OK and it took me a while to understand how things work , but so far i have one major point to make:

  • They sound natural ! natural if the volume is set to the RIGHT level ! , I understand that most people might adjust volume to set their preferences , but i concentrated on finding the right volume level where i hear key sounds i used to hear in my immediate environment without EXTRA noises or sounds it seems to pick up at higher volumes , an example is my car’s rattling noises and road noise , i remember exactly how road noise sounds in my car and used to be picky about it before my hearing loss (i went through three tire set’s to find quit tires) , after i lost my hearing it changed dramatically where i still hear some road noise but not like before. With the Intiga’s there’s one or two volume levels where everything around me sounds “Right” and like before. If I increase the volume level by as much as one or two levels , i start hearing a lot of “extra” rattling that i never heard before even when my hearing was fine before. It gets so bad that at one point i felt like driving a metal sled sometimes.

Another example is the cafeteria at my university , there are noisy HVAC fans in the roof of the cafeteria , so the cafeteria is pretty noisy but me and my friends used to be able to talk normally even with the noise in the background , after i lost my hearing the cafeteria sounds very quit for me. With the Intiga’s i was able to set the volume to the “Right” level where the fans are still audible in the background :slight_smile:

When i use the aids at the “Right” volume level i feel like my hearing is back almost exactly like before! no need to adjust or anything everything is sounds exactly like my brain was used to hear (Keyboard , toilet flush , city noise etc). I now can listen to the TV and understand EVERY word at 20% volume level exactly like i had it before (I had to set the TV to mid 60% levels after my hearing loss).

A point i want to make is that if i set the volume a bit more than the “Right” level i start getting overwhelmed with too much sound and realize that its too much sound for my brain to cope with. I develop a headeque if i set the volume higher for too long.

Now on to their performance in noisy environments , being young it was’nt too hard to get busy with friends and truly test out how these HA’s would cope with speech in loud environments. So last night i went with my friends to a popular Greek restaurant where a very loud live band and DJ music are playing. I am actually very impressed with their performance , I managed to hear 90% of the time speaking in a table of 8 people :slight_smile: . I heard almost EVERY word people said when leaning 2 feet away from me , or if they were across the table 5-6 feet. One problem I had is when i switch away from the speech in noise program , there’s no way to know where i am! this was very frustrating because the beeps are no longer audible with so much music and noise , so i had to literally get up and go to the toilet to set the program back to speech in noise!

“Oticon executives if you’re reading this there’s absolutely NO excuse that a small $300 remote that control’s $8,000 HA’s doesn’t have a small digital screen or indicator’s for program or volume, we’re in the year 2012!!!”

Note: Its seems im only allowed to post three pictures at a time , so i will continue in the next post below

#17

After the restaurant we went to a club/lounge/bar setting where a live DJ is playing very loud music , the Intiga’s performed flawlessly again! I couldn’t believe I regained my ability to speak to people in clubbing environments! it even functions well for someone across the table 6-7 feet away! :slight_smile: , If you want numbers i heard an estimated 9 words out of 10 most of the time in the club :slight_smile: , Below is a picture of the club/lounge , note the high number of speakers top-right . we were sitting in the middle just under the speakers:


MUSIC:

Music through the Bluetooth streamer is extremely bad! , it sounded worse than the worst 2$ worn out earphones i had ever tried in my life! The Audi told me she could raise the bass but at first impression i told her to not even try , as the sound was so bad i knew immediately i would never listen to music using the Streamer/Bluetooth configuration. Now the Audi told me these HA’s wouldn’t work with headphones but i attempted to try anyway. I have High-Fidelity AKG K-701’s headphones along with a small portable headphone amplifier (C-Moy) , Picture below:

Music.jpg480×640 60.2 KB

Boy was she wrong! they worked PERFECTLY , In the music program the highs in my music came alive! and i only need to set the volume below 25% to enjoy the full spectrum music experience :slight_smile: , there was no feedback whatsoever , it only happens 1% of the time and usually at the end of a song. I found it interesting when i switch to Auto mode , the HA’s freak out and start blocking noise to the point where they sound off. Music in my car is excellent also! Very close to , if not exactly like what music sounded in my car before my hearing loss.

Today morning i went with my girlfriend to our favorite french cafe for breakfast , its usually restaurant level noisy with calm french music playing. When setting the HA’s to that “Right” mark volume level , everything sounds natural. I was carrying a comfortable conversation with my girlfriend to the tune of Charles Aznavour’s music in the background. Regular Cafe noises like kitchen ware , people talking and glasses clinking were audible again but never bothered me , they sounded like natural background noises i used to hear at cafes. When i took the HA’s off i could no longer hear the background music nor all the other sounds , my girlfriends voice was not as clear.

I will be reporting more about how these HA’s fare against Phonak RIC’s and CIC’s. I’m especially interested to see if Phonak’s Stereo-Zoom feature can top the superior speech in noise performance of these Oticon Intiga 10’s. So far I’m very pleased :slight_smile:

#18

Great review!
Your pics seem no to appear…

Which version do you wear of Intiga: the BTE or the IIC?

#19

I edited my post to reflect that its the small Intiga 10 RIC model. The one you wear behind your ear.

Im disappointed you cant see my pictures , i hope its not just you! :confused:

#20

Reloading the page helped! :slight_smile:
These aids are very small!

What differences do you experience compared to the phonak nanos? Which one performed better? I was in a similar situation as well: hesitating between iic and ric…I haven’t tried the ric and decided for the iic, but it is really interesting, what differences do you experience.