Sound Issue with Oticon Real 1

Thanks and very good advice. I’ll be sure and be patient. It took me about 4 weeks to get used to the Phonak Lumity L90 sound (the other HAs I’m trialing) so I know it will take awhile with the Real 1s. Right now, I can’t really begin to assess the sound because the tinkling sound in a variety of situations obscures the underlying sound for me.

I do know I prefer the way the Real 1s handle BT streaming, but that’s, of course, just one of the factors involved in choosing between the two platforms.

Thanks!

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Thanks so very much for this comprehensive and precise explanation. I agree that the A/B testing of Speech Rescue makes a good deal of sense as do your other recommendations. I had not known about flutter and now understand how we can rule it out via Feedback Management.

One note: I already did trial the Lumity L90-RTs for about 7 weeks. While I confess I don’t know if their version of frequency shifting was turned on, I never had any tinkling sound (or other feedback related) issues. (Because of mold fit problems, I was using either two 105db receivers or a mix of 105db and 85db RICs during the trial period.) I did like the Lumitys in general but found their handling of BT streaming and phone calls suboptimal.

It forms a semi permanent seal. Yes you have to change the wax trap from the canal end, but that works as long as you set the receiver deep enough into the mould.

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Wondering if this is what I’m also experiencing. Certain sounds and/ or speech is causing like a vibration or fluttering particularly in my left ear. I’m getting skeleton moulds and having REM testing in a couple of weeks so should be able to eliminate this as it’s pretty annoying now. The moulds I have atm are canal lock type ones and they do slip out so I get feedback if I put my hands over my ears, and have to push them back in to not get feedback.

My audiologist did adjust the feedback management last time so wonder if it is this?

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If your audi did adjust it for you, he (or she?) might have reduced its value from Normal to Low, but not to OFF entirely. Your left hearing is slightly worse than your right hearing, so at the right resonant frequency where the feedback potential can occur, it’s possible to experience the fluttering in just the left ear and not the right.

I would wait until you get the new molds and REM done first, and if it still doesn’t go away, it doesn’t hurt to turn Feedback Management to OFF next, if not already, to see if it helps. If you have it turned to OFF and the fluttering is gone but now you experience feedback again, you should still be able to ask your audi to fall back on the traditional reactive feedback manager to manage your feedback the traditional way.

Thanks for responding. I think he increased it as I was having (am) having feedback. Then it was a bit too much as in the sound felt duller, so he decreased it so I’m not sure where it is currently.

It’s certainly when sounds are loud, then it vibrates or flutters that sound at the end. I was able to replicate it a few times. Mostly in my left but does happen in my right sometimes, or both.

I’ll wait for the new moulds and REM. The REM is with an audiologist I usually see in the U.K. so hopefully they can figure the issue while doing the REM, fingers crossed and eliminate the issue for me.

Overall, I hear so much better with these compared to my OPNs PP BTEs so I don’t want to return them. Just needs adjustment for sure.

Thanks again for replying.

I wanted to provide an update on my own situation with the “tinkling feedback-like problem” I’ve been having with my Real 1s. Hopefully, the provisional solution may help someone else.

Big thanks to @Um_bongo , @Volusiano , @tenkan @Zebras @Raudrive and everyone else who suggested things to try.

Today at the HCP we did the following:

  1. Replaced the 85db receivers with 105db receivers in my custom ear molds. Then did a REM fitting. The new receivers seemed to have more appropriate power but tinkling sound remained.

  2. Turned on Sound Rescue allowing for lowest possible frequency and various power levels. Turned off all high frequencies setting. Made the tinkling worse.

  3. Turned off Sound Rescue and iteratively lowered MPO and gains on both HAs starting at 2khz. Reduced but didn’t eliminate tinkling.

  4. Went to “Automatics” section and turned “Feedback Manager” to low. This really reduced the tinkling sound. Then, turned “Feedback Manager” to off. This finally eliminated the tinkling sound.

The only reason we tried step #4 was because of @Volusiano 's explanation that Oticon’s feedback control could introduce “flutter”. Please see Volusiano’s complete technical explanation, but my sense is that “flutter” can be introduced when the Real 1s “anticipate” feedback – probably because there’s so much gain flowing through the HAs – and attempt to eliminate the feedback before it occurs.

My HCP listened carefully for any feedback from the Real 1s and neither she nor I could hear any – even after we counterintuitively turned off feedback management as a response to a tinkling feedback-like sound.

So, I think the moral here (aside from read Volusiano’s posts) is that you have a profound loss like mine and you start hearing a tinkling feedback-like sounds with Otico Real 1s, try playing with the Feedback Management in the Automatics section and possibly turn it off completely. And, of course, also roll off MPO and gains in the higher frequencies as well.

Thanks!

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It’s possible that turning on Speech Rescue (the frequency lowering thing) cause the feedback tinkling to be worse because now you’re transposing and composing the high sounds into the lower destination frequency range, thereby adding more sounds into that range, resulting in more energy which can help boost up the potential for feedback further.

But now that you’ve established that the Frequency Manager (RealSound Optimizer) is the culprit and turned it off to eliminate the tinkling, did you restore the Speech Rescue functionality to help optimize the audibility hearing range for you?

And did your audi have to resort to enabling the traditional (reactive) feedback shield manager to help you control feedback, now that the RealSound Optimizer feedback manager has been disabled? If yes, and it’s a struggle to control feedback with the traditional reactive feedback shield, then there’s a possibility that turning on Speech Rescue can overtax the traditional Feedback Shield and cause more feedback as well. But if it’s not a problem, then it’d be definitely worthwhile to try out and enable Speech Rescue again, especially for your type and level of hearing loss.

Thanks for the update,all good results, however I am surprised it was the feedback manager alone in the end and nothing else, but there you go!

Cheers

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Hi @tenkan , lowering the MPOs and high frequencies incrementally also helped quite a bit. But turning off the feedback manager in steps from normal to low to off made a noticeable immediate improvement. So I really think it was a combination of both. Thanks.

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Thank you for this. I suspect I have the same issue then. I’ll mention this when I get the adjustments made.

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I confess we didn’t try turning it back on. The appointment was running long as it was and I focused on making sure neither my audi nor I heard any audible feedback after turning off feedback managment. I could stimulate almost no feedback even when I pushed the aids around physically. It is a very good idea to try Speech Rescue again and will do so at my next appointment in two weeks or when I get my DIY environment fully functioning.

I remember your mentioning traditional Phonak reactive feedback management – as opposed to what now appears to be “anticipatory” feedback management – and asked my audi about it. My audi doesn’t know the Genie software that well (she does mainly Phonaks but is starting to appreciate Oticons has some advantages in different situations) and didn’t know how to set up the reactive feedback management. So, unless reactive feedback management is turned on by default, I don’t think it’s on. Can you tell me where in Genie one sets up reactive feedback management? It doesn’t appear I need it – at least under the present setup – but it might be good for me to turn it on in conjunction with turning on Speech Rescue to see if I can get back some high frequency sound.

Thanks again for all your help.

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Below is the screenshot of Genie 2 and you can see right under Fine Tuning is the Feedback Analyzer. The audi would run the white noise generator while you have the aids on and it’ll generate the noise across the frequency range looking for feedback resonant spots. Then it’ll automatically adjust to dampen the gains where the feedback spots are found.

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Ah, I understand. It’s just the normal feedback analyzer. No, we didn’t run it again yesterday. We’ll do so again next time in conjunction with trying Speech Rescue. Thanks

I had my audi set up two programs – one with Feedback Manager on low and one with Feedback Manager turned off. Doing so has really made it clear to me that I need Feedback Manager actually turned off to avoid all flutter. The A/B approach is a good way to make sure of the efficacy of making certain changes. Being able to do the A/B approach is really the main reason I’m going to go the DIY route. That and not driving my Audi nuts with making constant experimental changes.

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Genie allows two VAC+ programs with different settings? Is there a duplicate program option somewhere?

So this would need to be repeated if a different dome is used or other physical fitting adjustments are made? Is REM required or the aids alone can do this?

Yes, in the Program Manager, just select the program you want, then click on the Copy button to create the duplicate program. In the screenshot below, I did a copy of P1 into P3, then P2 into P4 as an example. Then you can go to the copied program and change things up for A/B comparison. Of course you can use the up/down arrow buttons on the right to move the A/B program right next to each other for 1 click program change comparison.

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Yes, I would say when you have a new fitting change, you will also need to indicate the change in Genie 2 so that a new gain prescription is generated based on the new fitting. Once the new gain prescription is generated, you would want to do REM at this point, then run the Feedback Analyzer test to get the feedback margin established. Replacing a bad receiver with the exact same size receiver would probably not be considered a new fitting change, though.

Whether you should run the Feedback Analyzer before or after REM, I’m not 100% sure. Maybe one of the HCP participant on the forum can chime in. If I had to guess, I’d say that you’d want to run REM first because you want the gain curve to be up to target before messing with the feedback margin. If the original gain curve underperforms and REM adjustment needs to bring it up to the target gain curve, running the Feedback Analyzer be, fore REM would just cater the feedback control to the original (weaker) gain curve. But running the Feedback Analyzer after REM would cater to the true-to-target gain curve, which is more gain, may have the potential to trigger feedback more easily, hence the Feedback Analyzer would have to be more aggressive in treating the feedback.

Below is an example of the resulting gain chart after you have run the Feedback Analyzer. It’s for my OPN but would apply the same for the More and up. The shaded area on the top of the gain curve is the Analyzed Feedback Margin, meaning that it’s the risk area where if you adjust your gain into these territories, you will risk getting feedback from happening. To prevent this, the Feedback Analyzer would suppress the gain curve to be below this feedback risk area, which is one of the drawbacks of the traditional feedback strategy → the loss of headroom for the gain to suppress feedback. The new proactive feedback Optimizer technology tries to reclaim this risk area and push the gain curve up closer to target by introducing the breaks (the flutter or tinkling sound that the OP hears) to break up the feedback energy ahead of time. This works for many people and not everyone would hear this fluttering, and if they do, it’s few and far in between and perhaps soft enough to ignore. But for people with very heavy hearing losses, the fluttering may be too frequent and too loud to be ignored.

Note that a combination of both feedback options can be used as well. Perhaps if you have the traditional Feedback Analyzer ON, the new reactive Feedback Manager (Optimizer) wouldn’t have to work as hard and the fluttering may be less noticeable.

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I have similar hearing loss to you, and have Phonak Audeo Paradise P90R’s. I’m really interested in learning how you’re doing with self programming.
My issues have been word recognition and trouble hearing and understanding conversation in loud noise.

My wife frequently says my hearing aids aren’t working. Makes me sad.

DaveL
Toronto