This forum is amazing btw.
This statement is incorrect. Frequency lowering takes upper frequency sounds you can not hear and moves them into lower frequencies you can hear.
Some hearing aid manufacturers can move these upper frequencies lower than others. Pending on your loss itâs best to understand these limits.
I think frequency lowering is more complex than moving high frequencies to low frequencies and I think the target needs to be in the mid frequencies and not the low frequencies. Hereâs one paper on the subject; The dog sleeps in a basket.
Maybe I didnât express myself clearly. I meant to say that the high frequencies are changed to lower frequencies; therefore when the audiologist implied that I would notice a flatter sound rather than a sharper sound, she was wrong. Am I making sense? Anyway, I seem to have a high frequency that is too loud and impeding my understanding of speech.
Frequency lowering take the high frequencies and shifts them to a low- mid frequency.
Depending on what the high frequency is it shifts it to a certain low-mid frequency. For example the 3K frequency may shift to1.5K- 2K frequency, 4K frequncy shifts to 2.5K frequency depending on the software. And you can limit it the amount of high frequncy shifting. Settings are low, mid, high. When I tried the frequency shifting I started with the low setting which shifted I believe the 4K frequency shifted to I think the 1.5K or 2K frequency. Anyway it takes time to get use to it. I did not like it, it seems like there was to much loudness at the mid frequency range which probably could have been adjusted for.
This is very adjustable.
Your hearing loss is getting difficult to fit. Getting the right fit might take you time to adjust to and learn.
You are in the DIY forum, do you self program?
Have you considered Phonak aids? Their Sound Recover 2 is questionably the best at this time. With Target software you can adjust how aggressive frequency lowering is. There are upper and lower frequency cut offs that are set to your loss.
If certain frequencies are to loud or too soft they can easily be adjusted.
Good luck and hang in there.Preformatted text
Well I have already organised to trial Phonak next week. I donât self program yet, was encouraged to have a go by another member, but I feel daunted by the prospect. Another audiologist told me he didnt like Phonak because of their feedback reduction algorithm.
I think your audiogram is similar to mine. Which HAs do you use?
Latest are the Phonak Audeo B90 RT aids. I am deaf in my upper frequencies, no need to put gain there. Learning that was very important pertaining to what aids are best for my loss. I figured this out on my own, two audiologists and one fitter didnât recognize I was deaf in the upper frequencies. They tried to fit aids to the deaf areas.
Got a CI on my right side in October. Planning to do my left pretty soon. CI is pretty amazing.
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I live in Spain btw. No Costco. But in the UK there are some dealers that sell HAs for under 1300-2000 euros via internet.
How could the audiologists fail to notice you were deaf in the high frequencies???
Bizarre.
Because they insist that you have to tell whenever you feel/hear something, and are not interested the slightest of what you exactly hear. If you hear pure tones of the proper colour, then this is ok approach.
But if you donât hear pure tones, then that implies a problem. Eg if you hear them distorted, with prrr sound or something else.
Test for cochlear dead regions should be done, for example with otoacustic emissions, but I had an encounter with the device that is able to test only 1-4k or similar, so completely useless for detection low and high frequency status. Donât know where to find the device (at which provider/doctor) which covers whole spectrum they usually measure.
But, your average fitter or audi usually isnât interested in correlation between that and your comprehension. Many think itâs enough to just give the volume.
Speaking of comprehension, I see two things to keep in mind. First one is not to hope for too much from red/right ear and ordinary set up HAs, because WRS of 60 isnât good. Left/blue ear has 90 which is good.
But, such asymmetry could be a problem for your brain to process the info.
With ordinary set up HAs, your right ear can at best get to 60. Which means you will heavily rely on better side. Not a problem, just something to be aware of.
And then you need to actively train, like podcasts and audiobooks on bad side only, so that brain keeps utilising it.
Another approach is frequency lowering for bad ear.
But, that means sound color will be drastically different between the two aids, and that can be really tiring for brain.
What Iâd try is to go frequency lowering route on both sides, to send similar signal color to the brain from each.
Point of HAs isnât to just make everything louder, point is to decrease brain strain to the highest degree possible.
That is, if you chase speech comprehension and not ânatural soundâ.
I think no one with significant loss and damage in cochlea, not to mention dead regions, can ever get the natural sound and is just not worth chasing.
Instead, work on accepting that sound as your new natural one and squeeze the most out of it.
Thatâs my approach. Iâve put HA in perfectly normal hearing ear in order to push my brain to accept both sides and get the most out of it, even if it sounds sharp/tinny/distorted whatnot.
Many doctors are baffled and do not get it, and I have issues with them to prescribe me two so that I can make a case with insurance company. At least that was the idea, but Iâm getting tired of ENTs who supposedly are for hearing, and have no clue about affect of dead regions, symmetry and whatnot. And published articles are free to access, Iâve read them.
So yeah, finding a fitter/audi who really gets it is the most important. Worth spending a lot of time.
Trialing several aids, probably not that much. Trialing fitters - hugely important!
I have awesome fitter, but in order to get some money from the insurance I need competent ENT, which seems like mission impossible here.
We can adapt to any sound color if we want.
We cannot get good comprehension with poor fit.
Only thing worth trialing between aid manufacturers IMO is oticon vs others. Since oticon has âlet everything inâ approach. However, Iâm convinced that if you need bigger SNR than 3-5, you probably wonât do well with aids that let a ton in. Because, aids donât really know what is noise for you and what is speech you want to understand. They have some ideas, and are getting better, however, our brain processing capability differs, and what is too much noise for you I might not even notice, and vice versa.
Like, Iâve noticed that playing a game with occasional shooting asteroids and talking is a challenge. I did reduce my noise block for quiet, thinking I donât need it that high. Now I see I do. How exactly oticon works, I havenât studied, in terms how it distinguishes what is noise and what isnât exactly. I canât find a place to get proper test for SNR, I have only value from online trainer, with my aids it says Iâm over 10, which is huge.
Also, what phone, and other equipment you might want/need, or which environment youâre in shrinks the pool of candidates.
Like, you need mics and want table mic that grabs people around the table? Starkey + their or phonak + roger select.
You need people around big table? Phonak + bunch of roger table mics.
Non iphone and want classic BT to connect to other devices? Phonak / unitron.
Musician? Check widex and oticon I think
Want diy? Avoid widex
Big SNR need? Forget about getting it with aid alone, no matter how pricey it is (best ones can do 3-5), focus on mics.
Want red colored aid for adults? Widex or resound afaik
You donât mind intermediary device and cost for all those above? Many will do. Unitron might got roger direct already, Iâm not following them so no clue.
Iâm taking only big manufacturers into the account - phonak/unitron, oticon, starkey, signia, widex, resound.
And any comparison is valid only and only if aids are fitted properly following best practices for your loss.
Otherwise comparison makes no sense.
I had the same aid fitted with âhow do you hear me nowâ method and using REM + live speech mapping.
In first case I heard better without aids.
In second case I was astonished how I can get comprehension and not just âsome sounds inâ.
Granted, REM + LSM isnât for frequency lowering directly, it needs to be tweaked I think?
But, fitter who knows what theyâre doing, should make a tests and talk with you about your issues, wants and needs, and should be able to recommend aid to trial based on that, and not on what they have in stock.
By having just one or two manufacturers, they essentially force us to learn about differences so that we need to do that work, and still pay them.
If you havenât already, I suggest getting some basics through these two sources
best practices summarised by dr cliff
https://blog.valuehearing.com.au/news/must-hearing-aid-features
https://blog.valuehearing.com.au/news/do-i-really-need-expensive-hearing-aid
And they have article about listening in noise, also recommended to read.
Both sources have youtube channel if you like that media instead.
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Hi Blacky,
Just wanted to say that having followed many of your posts how interesting and valuable your contributions have been.
English is obviously not your native tounge (not a criticism but a compliment) but you certainly hit the key points .
I assume you are a particle physicist or trainee astronaut t(joking) the way you have embraced this subject.
Keep going and you will no doubt be challenging the pros !
Michael
Amazing information, although I donât understand all of it. I am only testing a HA for the left ear as my word recognition was worse with 2 HAs in the Widex and the Oticon shops. Any thoughts on that? Is that what you are getting at when you mention training the bad ear?
As you say, finding a good audiologist who doesnât want you out of the shop within an hour is proving hard. I get the impression they think Im being fussy.
Thanks
Math and CS engineer 
So yeah, trained to ask why and why not
And I guess my missed articles are a dead giveaway that Iâm not a native speaker
Since I started learning German, I have noticed that my English articles stopped vanishing. 
My native language doesnât have them, and I never saw the logic behind a and the since they basically donât bring any significant value. We do have genders (for singular and plural, so thatâs 6 vs german 4) and declensions (7 cases vs 4 in German) and all is seen in word suffix. So German which is in between - word is fixed but article changes helped me to improve my English. Not to mention that I didnât speak English before moving here, I was only reading, writing, listening.
Take your time. It took me several months of reading all around to grasp how things work. And Iâve reread a bunch.
With poorly fitted HA I heard better without it than with it, since sounds it brought messed up my brain. So Iâd assume same behaviour.
I think thatâs the hardest. I was at the point of buying HA on the ebay and just self programming knowing how hard and daunting that would be, but at least I could test with TV, my hubby and other sounds. I decided to sleep over such huge order and gave a lady look for REM based fitters. Found two, one was expensive and didnât left good impression on the phone (itâs a clinic, so I spoke with receptionist I guess). Second one is one man show, and he started his practice because he hated that at the previous workplace despite doing REM, he was rushed.
Your loss probably needs frequency lowering.
Because of widex not playing nice with rem equipment, Iâd skip them.
Oticon has open approach to sound, but Iâm sceptic about how well that is for serious losses/dead regions. Several years ago Iâve tried oticon, I think alta pro vs widex dream. Oticon sounded more natural, but when I was sitting at the table with soft spoken mumbling person on my bad side, so his mouth half a meter away from ny ear, quiet room, I couldnât understand a word. I pulled them out and it was better. I guess this ear took over without obstacles.
People here keep mentioning that phonak has good frequency lowering which is worth testing for your case.
So, Iâd spend the time contacting the clinics and asking them what they do. Check this dr cliff best practice list.
Even travelling for a one-two REM fitting is ok.
Even when we used not the best formula for my loss, what my fitter gave me with firat fit was usable, and miles miles away from anything I ever got from anyone else. Yes all others use manufacturer settings only.
This year attempt was on the same aid. Useless vs whoa I can understand! One rem fitting. Second was using different domes, and different formula.
Yes, thereâs a bunch of my tweaking of programs, like how much noise block and such. Iâm happy I went DIY for that, since itâs just more convenient for me. But with remote assistance phonak aids and your fitter can do the same.
Rem fit might not work for your loss or your brain. However, I still think it is worth trying because that is the gold standard without guesswork.
I believe it is possible to get good results starting from any gain curve, eg manufacturerâs one, itâs however insanely harder and longer, and both you and your fitter have to know how sound works and what causes what, which isnât the case. Rem based live speech mapping gives incredible good starting point. So it takes much less iterations. Weâre talking 2 vs 40 probably. Just for the gain curve, so to get the best possible speech comprehension in quiet. Then tweaking is needed for all other situations.
Frequency lowering is also worth trying. Thatâs two more letâs say.
So, it is of the of utmost importance to find a fitter who is really interested in helping you hear the best possible with your loss and not just making money.
So that might be non rem fitter who is willing to spend 40h on getting you to the same WRS you have on test. Thatâs definitely better for you than someone who wants your money in a session or two. But Iâd have those as plan B.
Check dr cliffs recent video on âwhy good enough approach isnât goodâ.
Also, money wise.
Itâs your money and your loss. Realistic expectations are important to have, however, until HAs are fitted that for each ear you have same WRS as on test, theyâre not even close to being fitted properly.
Since your loss is significantly asymmetric, brain training of bad side is worth.
But first step is getting at least same WRS with aids as on the test. Per ear. IMO.
Second, they want your money (those who are sellers). So theyâll work the hardest now, to make you commit, youâre investment. After you pay, they want you to come as little as possible, because youâre now expense. So, if they donât even try hard now, what are the realistic chances theyâll do it later?
Itâs your money. It is huge money. You want the most out of your aids. It might not be great hearing with them, but you need all that those aids can give you. With someone who isnât even trying to extract that, youâll never reach it.
Youâre not fussy. You want that someone earns that money and give you the best care. Aids are for life (or until CI). So youâre building a relationship with your fitter. You work hard on your side to explain as precisely as possible what bothers in and in which situations. You pay on time. S/He works hard to understand what you struggle with and push those aids to the max.
Such fitters are worth their weight in gold.
Sellers donât deserve to keep their business IMO. But they will live as long as people keep buying from them and accepting such service - they have zero incentive to change, this works and makes profit.
So we as customers are the one who are making final decision to whom weâll give our money.
Just because their model works for them, and itâs common, that doesnât mean such model should work for you or that you have to accept it. Youâre not fussy, you have standards 
Hello again.
I wonder if you could answer a couple of queries.
I am now trialling The Phonak Marvel M90, after the Widex Evoke, Beltone Amaze and Oticon S1 - all of which I believe use frequency lowering and none of which have been satisfactory.
I canât understand why these 4000⏠devices donât make me hear really well. They have been marginally better than my 350⏠HD430 bought online years ago. I have watched the current Audiologist tweaking the frequency lowering, but I donât seem to be getting the results. I either seem to go deafer or have echo or a tinny tone. then she says things like you will hear everything lower because Ive moved the frequencies, to which I replied, but I already he everything lower because I canât hear the high frrequencies. She didnât seem to get it. What is wrong?
Secondly about REM testing, the Widex did the version built in to their software, th phonak girl doesnât do it, the oticon woman borrowed the device one day, did the test once, and never again, it didnt seem to help. Another Audiologist who has been answering my questions gave me this reply when I asked him about it:
"REM test in theory sounds perfect. However in practice it is not (in my opinion). Setting up the probe tube and calibrating it fine. However as soon as you introduce the hearing aid into the ear canal it is impossible to not move the probe tube, thus the test becomes inaccurate. "
Shouldnât the REM test be done after every adjustment? Any idea what might be the reason for the one I had not helping?
I am so fed up - Ive been trialling HAs since August and none of them have worked effectively. I actually ended up in tears out of frustration in the Audiologistâs on Thursday. Plus I feel guilty that I am trialling the aids with no intention of buying from the shops because I know I can get them online for half the price.
I recommend opening own topic.
Share your audiogram, your word recognition score, your signal to noise ratio.
It looks like you didnât find a fitter who follows best practices, since you are clueless as what the aids can and cannot provide you.
I get the frustration. Knowledge helps to set up expectations.
If you havenât already, I suggest getting some basics through these two sources
best practices summarised by dr cliff
https://blog.valuehearing.com.au/news/must-hearing-aid-features
https://blog.valuehearing.com.au/news/do-i-really-need-expensive-hearing-aid
And they have article about listening in noise, also recommended to read.
Both sources have youtube channel if you like that media instead.
Sounds like you are ready for DIY, forget about trying to get them to help you, you donât need any of those fancy YouTube videos or testing equipment, all you need is the programming software and programming device, go for it, thereâs plenty of people from right here on hearingtracker forums that help you along the way.
Good luck.
As mentioned self programming sure might be a great option for you.
Are you anywhere near a Costco? They would do good fittings with great service/warranty.
Asking a business if they use best practices before using them might minimize your frustration.
I live in Spain. No Costco here.
I took another look at your audiogram and read this quote from you.
You have to understand your hearing is pretty bad. No hearing aids will give you back hearing you have lost.
When you trial an aid with frequency lowering technology you will hear sounds you have not heard in a long time. These new sounds are very strange at first. It takes time for your brain to re-learn these new sounds. A lot of these new sounds are needed for better speech understanding. Probably more time than you have given all these aids you have trialed.
If you self programmed you could buy aids much cheaper than at your audiologist but you would be responsible for fitting the aids. Many of us have done this for years. I sure donât want to push you into something you donât want to do though.