Phonak Marvel - vibrating tremolo effect for high pitched (electronic) sounds

Hearing Aids
#11

As Jim said, I’m a classical pianist (majored in performance on violin and piano in college) and I have the Marvel M90-R. The only time I ever experienced feedback was once when I didn’t have them solidly pushed in so that all I can feel with my finger is the tip of the speaker thing. I have domes that have a thin wing that’s in two pieces and is definitely not any kind of closed dome. I’ve never experienced the tremolo effect that people talk about here on the forums.

My audiologist used the Phonak MyPhonak app and the “Remote Support” option to set up my “Piano Program”. I placed my phone on my piano music rack and she could see and hear me and I could see and hear her. Then I would play a passage and some scales and arpeggios and tell her what I thought the problems were. She would make adjustments and we would go through the same procedure over and over. With each iteration she would write the changes to my Marvels. Now whenever I sit down to the piano this is the program I change to. I only have two extra programs set on my Marvels, 1. Music, 2. Piano. If I’m going to the symphony or listening to live music I use the Music Program. Whenever I play the piano, I use the Piano Program.

I have a 7’ 5" Kawai Concert Grand piano in a 35 x 20 room with ceramic tile floors and a 2 1/2 story tall ceiling. It’s a wonderful place to have a large grand piano. However the volume when playing fortissimo is very loud. My Piano program cuts the volume down by several steps and everything works out very well. I’m very pleased with how my Marvels are working with music.

The most pleasant surprise with my Marvels is the amazing high quality of streaming music. I’m a bit of an audiophile and have spent a good bit on high quality audio equipment. My Marvels rival my best headphones. I have a lossless CD quality subscription to Primephonic and with my Marvels I can readily hear the quality difference between MP3 on my Google Play Music subscription and lossless CD quality on my Primephonic subscription.

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#12

Thank you for the extensive reply. Based on your comments, I think I may need a better audiologist/technician setting mine up. In Autosense 3.0 mode, I can get the tremolo/trill effect by simply whistling. A woman’s voice when it reaches a certain volume threshold causes it as well. My guess is that there is something overdone in the settings for feedback control. Settling in with them allowed me to get past the initial honeymoon phase and I am listening more carefully. There are things I love, and the bells and whistles are great too. I ended up needing what the technician referred to as the ‘power receiver’ so perhaps she set them up for the regular receiver first and then went to update for power receiver without readjusting the feedback settings.

Again, thanks for your detailed response. I am hoping I can get mine set up as well as yours are. Quick question - did you go rechargeable or battery?

Regarding Streaming audio - we could not get that dialed in very well, either. I usually listen on Sennheiser HD 580 Jubilees for headphones and a Tannoy Reveal 8 system for speakers (the sonic signature between the two is very similar). And for travel, I use Bose QC35s (love Bose’s ANR) with a FiiO 96k FLAC/AIFF file player. Comparatively, the streaming in my test Marvels sounds like a transistor radio. So, I am now more convinced than ever that they are simply not set up well. Since I plan on purchasing from another vendor, I am hoping the technician there will do a better job. It will be between these and the new Philips HearingLinks.

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#13

I have the M90-R rechargeable.

It would be cool if you could add your Audiogram so I could see how close or different our hearing is! I wonder if that might be why some get the tremolo/trill and I don’t. The only time I can get feedback is if I pull my receiver part way out. My audiologist taught me to make sure the receiver is pushed in as far as I can get it to go so that all I can feel is the tip end of it.

#14

I can post my audiogram tomorrow when I am at my computer. Right now I am on an iPad and can’t seem to copy and paste a photo. Essentially I am ok up to 2K and then get a steep drop in both ears - about 60dB down.

I don’t get ANY feedback from these aids in Autosense mode - what I am saying is that the aids interpret anything approaching a pure tone as feedback and then I can hear them working to eliminate the sound. And because it isn’t feedback, they can’t eliminate it. So the audible effect is the oscillation or trill around the note, or voice, or beep.

I have a manual program called Music that removes the feedback rejection algorithm, and that stops the trilling. Though, there’s the potential for feedback when my hands get near the aids. I also had the technician set the mic for Omnidirectional which provides a better sound for playing my instrument. However, I have to remember to switch back to Autosense, as it is pretty not-nice for regular, everyday wear.

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#15

You don’t need to post a photo of your audiogram. If you click on my avatar you will see my audiogram. You enter your audiogram by just clicking on a chart in your profile settings for the forum.

#16

I recently got the Marvel M70-R’s and I also notice that trill with electronic beeps. Nice to know what it is.

Costco Kirkland Signature 9.0 (Product Information)
#17

Regarding the Phonak Marvels and the ‘trill’ or ‘tremolo’ effect, here is my attempt to capture the problem.
There are links to nine audio clips. All were recorded using a Neumann TLM-184 microphone through a Focusrite Scarlett USB Audio Interface, into my Macintosh running Logic X Pro Audio recording software.

There are two basic things here:

First are single notes, particularly a C sharp, recorded through the aids with the mic as isolated as possible from the room, so you are only getting the sound of the aids. I did this with the AUTOSENSE 3.0 program and the MUSIC program that’s manually in my aids (without Whistle Stop, using the OMNI mic). Then I recorded single notes in the room as captured by the mic without the aids.
I have samples here of just the aids, the aids mixed with the room (to illustrate the sound one would have wearing aids in real life), and then just the room.

There’s also one single note melody with just the sound of the aids set to AUTOSENSE to give an idea of musical context.

1: Single notes recorded by the microphone in the room, no hearing aids:

  1. Single notes recorded by the microphone through aids MUSIC program with room mixed in:

  1. Single notes recorded by the microphone through aids MUSIC program without the room mixed in:

  1. Single notes recorded by the microphone through aids AUTOSENSE 3.0 program with the room mixed in:

  1. Single notes recorded by the microphone through aids AUTOSENSE 3.0 program without the room mixed in:

  1. A single note and two-notes at once melody recorded by the microphone through aids AUTOSENSE 3.0 program without the room mixed in:

Then I basically did the same thing with a chord melody - Just the AUTOSENSE with the aids, just the MUSIC program with the aids, and then just the room through the Neumann Mic.

  1. Chord Melody and single notes recorded by the microphone in the room, no aids:

  1. Chord Melody and single notes recorded by the microphone through aids MUSIC program without the room mixed in:

  1. Chord Melody and single notes recorded by the microphone through aids AUTOSENSE 3.0 program without the room mixed in:

For me, the single notes show the trill/tremolo effect in the most obvious manner.

For the chord melodies, it presents more as distortion than ‘trill’.

All input levels were kept below 0dB so there was no distortion coming in or going out.

For the guitar people, it’s an electric guitar built by Joe Yanuziello straight into a Quilter MicroPro Mach 2 8" amp.

As far as real-world issues, voices that get slightly higher pitched and louder produce the same trilling, as do beeps and such from computers, appliances, etc.

Anyway, I hope this helps illustrate and define the issue.

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#18

It seems there’s no way with the current interface to enter one’s audiogram anymore. I’ve been through the whole account and preferences area but haven’t found anything. What I have found is that it looks like they changed it in mid 2018 or so, from some posts I was able to dig up.

#19

Hey Jo58,
After the Widex Evoke 2-week trial I looked forward to testing the Phonak Audeo Marvel’s and also because Phonak does such great advertising campaign, LOL
3 days into my examination I too noticed a distorted effect above mid-high gain on certain sounds not unlike the tremolo you described, I told my Audi it should be called the Tambourine Effect.
I did not have the Tambourine Effect in my three other tryouts; Oticon OPN’s, Signia Stilletto’s and of course the Widex Evoke (which are the HA’s that I have just ordered)

#20

I spent a good bit of time trying to find a way to make a change to my audiogram. I couldn’t find a way to do it. I certainly hope this gets fixed soon.

#21

Try searching “Where do I post my audiogram”

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#22

Posting My Audiogram: I’ve been searching for this for hours over several days and I can’t find anything that works. I’ve found a half-dozen instructions, slightly different at times, possibly illustrating changes over the last year or two. They all seem to boil down to going to your HearingTracker (not Forum) profile, and you should see “Add My Audiogram” or a chart or something. My HearingTracker profile just has my avatar, my name, my bio blurb, and NOTHING else. Just some ads on the right. At the top, MyAccount is not a pull-down menu as pictured in some of the explanatory posts.

Is there something I’m missing? Am I not worthy because I’ve been signed up only a few days?

#23

Finally found this. It worked for me.

This Link

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#24

I had searched. Until the link buried in a forum post to here was shared, I couldn’t find anything. There appear to be no direct links from anyplace you’d set up your profile. I’ve now added mine.

#25

Great thread here! This is why I love this forum :blush:

Audiogram is coming back soon. In the meantime please use the link above to our old audiogram input. Sorry about the delay!

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#26

What the OP is describing is classic feedback cancellation trying to cancel something that isn’t feedback. It used to be called entertainment, don’t know if the term has changed.

Most of the big companies now have separate music algorithms that can be applied where the FB canceler is static rather than adaptive, and all the features that would try to self adjust or manipulate the signal are turned off.

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#27

The Rexton/Signia KS8 switches the Feedback control to slow from the default fast, for the music programs. It can also be turned off, but that may not be acceptable to those who are using a lot of gain.

#28

I’ve ended my trial with the Marvels early. While the technician was able to give me a manual program for music, the trilling/tremolo effect in every day life - on louder higher pitched voices, on computer prompts, microwave beeps, etc - was, to me, unacceptable. In certain cases, it rendered speech unrecognizable.

Perhaps a different technician at Costco will have better luck dialing it in. I am glad I was able to document the issues with audio clips before turning them in. So, we will see what happens with KS-9s and/or the Philips HearingLink from Costco. My appointment there is for August 8th.

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#29

I thought the KS9 was a Phonak Marvel? Don’t you think it will be the same?

#30

Since it seems to be sporadic (from user to user), I am hoping a different technician may have other ideas. I wish they would give me access to the software. Pretty sure I could find a reasonable threshold for where and when the various tools that make up feedback rejection kick in. Anyway, I will see what happens.

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