I am only upgrading because it is a minimal cost due to Oticon’s price increases.
I went to a very noisy restaurant right after I picked them up and they didn’t seem a lot better. However, I’ve tried just about every aid out there and never found one that works great in very noisy restaurants. I need to ask my aud to do a program with a directional setting for restaurants. I’ll let you know if it helps.
Did your audiologist use Real Ear Measurement?
The day I first got my More 1 I was in a crowded meeting with many conversations happening. I was able to carry on a conversation quite well. This was on the default program. The programming is supposed to recognize conversations in a noisy environment and adjust the microphone patterns automatically.
A skilled audiologist is key to a good hearing experience.
@prodigyplace: Oticon hearing aids don’t do this, do they, @Volusiano ? (Perhaps it depends how one defines “microphone patterns”)
Oticon doesn’t do it in the traditional way. The traditional way recognizes a noisy environment (like the AutoSense feature on Phonak for example) and can automatically adjust the directionality of the mics on the hearing aid to beam form to the front and attenuate sounds very aggressively on the back and the sides.
Oticon does do noise reduction via beam forming, but differently. Oticon uses a technique called MVDR (minimum variance distortion-less response) beam forming. Oticon uses the omnidirectional mic to pick up all 360 degrees surrounding sounds, and the back facing cardioid beam to create a noise estimator (see screenshot 1 below, and figure 2 of the screenshot 2). But if there’s speech on the side and the back, then that speech becomes an exception and is preserved via a Voice Activity Detector and not considered a noise source. Then Oticon uses the MVDR beam forming to “balance” the sound scene to attenuate the noise sources on the sides and the back (as part of the noise estimator), yet preserve the speeches that may be found in the back (like that speech between the 2 car noise sources in Figure 3 below).
So the difference is that with the traditional beam forming, the mic pattern adjustment simply blocks EVERYTHING on the sides and the back and only focuses on the front. With the Oticon beam forming, its type of beam forming only attenuates the noise sources found in the back and the sides, but makes exception for speech detected in the back or the sides.
This balancing is the core technology in the original OPN, got carried over to the OPN S, and also exists in the More and Real as the renamed Spatial Balancer (see screenshot 3 below), which is only employed for Difficult environment before it’s fed into the DNN. In the More and the Real, the DNN becomes the core technology, but the Spatial Balancer remains a very important part of the noise reduction scheme as well.
This special and different beam forming technique using MVDR allows noise attenuation but not as aggressively as the traditional way, so you can still hear the noise in the back and the sides, albeit rebalanced as to not overwhelmed speech, so that the 360 degree open paradigm is preserved. Meanwhile, the beam forming in the traditional approach very aggressively blocks out all sources on the sides and the back, regardless of whether there’s speech on the sides and the back or not. So it’s almost as if you have the blinders on to the front sounds only.
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I was trying to give a simply understandable answer. Going into how the software uses beamforming with the 4 microphones is only useful to those interested in the technical details. The practical aspects would be similar to changing to a directional program.
@prodigyplace: The quoted words are “simply understandable” to me, yet they don’t convey the false impression that Oticon does program switching.
I’m probably splitting hairs , but I see a lot of confusion between Oticon and Phonak on this point.
My attempted point was, that if properly adjusted, the aids should not need a special program for noisy environments. Whether the aids switch programs or gradually make the changes dynamically is a small, technical detail, IMO, I like precise detail too, but you need to know your audience since it is very easy to lose many people with too much technical detail.
@prodigyplace: You see, the point is not arcane - it reflects a fundamental difference of views. The Oticon “Speech in Noise” program in my More1s has been a game changer for me. It took my reaction to my aids from "meh" to WOW, as reflected in my posts at the time I received it.
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My More1 aids have been fitted so I don’t need any program other than the P0 general one. So yes when you explain to an audiologist that truly listens and understands your hearing loss the aids can be programmed to do it all so you don’t have to even think about them.
Well it least it is working for me.
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@cvkemp: For some reason, I benefit from the SiN program most when there’s a physical barrier(think plexiglas divider, in a bank) between me and the speaker, or if I’m at the opticians’ and I have to concentrate on the one fitting me when there are conversations going on to the left and right of me, that I can hear … Speech in Noise really works for me in that kind of scenario.
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I think @david33316 point in the first place was that he found his speech in noise performance to be the same between the More and the Real. But there’s implication in there that he’s still not 100% happy with the speech in noise performance of neither the More nor the Real.
I think @prodigyplace picked up on this implication and wanted to say that speech in noise on the More seems to work quite well for him, and perhaps @david33316 's audi could do a better job of adjustment to improve speech in noise for him.
All is good here except that perhaps the mention of the automatic change in microphone pattern when a noisy environment is detected gave the implication that the More (and Real) should do beam forming (usually an implication of the traditional beam forming where noise is blocked out from behind and from the sides) to help with speech in noise. @SpudGunner picked up on this implication of a traditional beam forming and wanted to clarify that the More/Real doesn’t do traditional beam forming because that would be against the Oticon open paradigm → hence asking me for clarification on the differences between them.
The bottom line is that even though the More’s speech in noise performance works well for many folks, some folks are still not 100% satisfied with it, like the folks who went to Whisper in hope for even better speech in noise performance. And @david33316 's confirmation is simply that the Real’s speech in noise performance is about the same as the More’s speech in noise performance, which is totally to be expected because the only improvement in the Real is sudden sound and wind/handling improvement. But the implication by saying “didn’t seem a lot better” conveys a sense of dissatisfaction there.
So @prodigyplace 's implication that perhaps @david33316 's audio can improve speech in noise performance for him is all fine, except that the mention of the automatic microphone pattern adjustment in noise implies traditional beam forming, which was the cause for the clarification that ensued.
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Interesting to hear the interpretations of my post. The oticon’s in general have the best sound quality of any aid I’ve ever used. Listening to music with them is wonderful. However their philosophy up until know of giving the wearer all the info and letting our brains sort it out has been a cop out in my opinion. I purchased Starkey’s because they handled noise much better, but, they don’t sound as natural. I think with the advent of the Real’s Oticon is admitting that they needed to let the aids filter the noise rather that our brains. I find them to be way more comfortable. As for in a restaurant situation all of the aids just provide too much info to use them for an entire meal. The ambient sound contains the same frequencies as the voices that I’m trying to hear and it’s just exhausting. I just turn off the aids and sit closer to the person that I want to hear. Until aids can create a cone of silence around us in a restaurant all aids as far as I’m concerned are just a compromise in restaurants. I’m loving the Real’s in all other situations including my car.
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@Volusiano: Exactly, MrV … Exactly. Thank you for yet another brilliant lumificaton of a subtitled point.
I have worn Oticon aids for about 14 years now and have seen them evolve over the years. I now have the More1 aids and find them great for all of my needs and the environments I frequent. Seeing I get my aids from the VA I am not sure I will be getting the Real1 aids are not but I am hoping so. I don’t have issues with noise as long as it isn’t sudden like a dog barking, are a fast passing loud motorcycle or truck.
Just setting in a restaurant isn’t a problem for me, nor is riding my very quiet Vespa Scooter, or even driving my Jeep with the windows open. But I have to agree with the Oticon concept of allowing my brain to sort things out. But I also agree with some others that certain people have hearing issues that they can no longer tolerate the noise. And to be honest I didn’t think I would be able to in the beginning of wearing the newer Oticon aids, but I was able to progress and have reaped the benefits of the open concept.
By the way I only have the default P0 general program, which is all I need for everything I do and the environments I am in including listing to music, go the lectures, and movies.
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I had my Audi program my More1 P2 - Speech in Noise mics to 180 degrees - left - front - right. This setting helps immensely in restaurant and dinner table (think holiday) to be able to hear and talk to your immediate seating partners. Loud high ceiling restaurants booming are still a crapshoot. If a screaming kid or loud voices in the next table - pull out your phone and decrease the volume on that side.
I would expect the Mores and the new Reals to behave and sound the same, except for improvement with sudden noises and wind. I wish I had the new Real. That’s how I interpreted your post - same satisfaction, as you are experienced with Oticon’s open sound concept.
Thank you your posting your experience.
I think you have a misconception here about the Oticon aids. Their open paradigm is not a “cop out” at all because their previous models before they introduced the OPN, OPN S, More, Real did just that, the traditional beam forming like many of the other brands. It’s not like they can’t or don’t know how to do traditional beam forming so they found an easy way to cop out of it because their open paradigm is easier to implement. On the contrary, Oticon went to a lot more trouble to implement the open paradigm to differentiate themselves apart from the other brands. They didn’t have to do it and could have easily just continued the traditional beam forming like before and like the other brands.
But I understand that while some folks embrace the open paradigm, other folks don’t like it and would just prefer to stick with the traditional beam forming, and there’s nothing wrong with that. But I want to clarify here that if you still find and prefer the Oticon sound more because it sounds more natural to you, and therefore still would rather stick with the Oticon despite not liking the open paradigm in noisy places, it’s not all lost to you because like @mago mentioned in her post above, there is an option to get the traditional beam forming functionality in Oticon if you want.
One way is to have your audi add the Speech in Noise and then select the Directionality Settings to Full Directional instead of the normal default value of Neural Automatic, then you will have gotten the traditional beam forming functionality like the other brands like you want. This is what @Mago had the audi done for her in a separate P2 program.
Another way to do this, more temporarily, without have to make an audi appointment to add another program for you, is simply to go into the Oticon phone app and turn on the MoreSound Booster, or in the Real case, probably now called the RealSound Booster. This effectively does the same thing, giving you the Full Directionality setting for Speech in Noise. The difference is that you can do this already right away, without having to rely your audi to setup another program for you.
Here’s another misconception. Sudden sound and wind handling addition in the Real is not Oticon finally admitting that they need to filter out noise. First of all, sudden sounds and wind is not really noise, but more like special annoyances and not normal noise. So the Real is for Oticon to expand the handling to cover handling of special annoyances, not an admission that they need to filter out noise. As mentioned above, they can already filter out noise aggressively and do allow users the ability to do so if they want. The way to think of it is that while they can do all that, they now can also let you hear the noise but still understand speech better, too, if you want → the open paradigm. And now to round it all out, while they let you hear everything you want to hear, things everybody actually for sure don’t care to hear like sudden sounds and wind, they’ll suppress them for you.
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I just got my Oticon real level 2 fitted in left ear with Bicros minirite in my right ear. Two weeks ago. My previous 4 year old HA was a Phonak Costco in ear special (brio?) in just my left ear. I have only 12% speech content comprehension and getting the Level 2 was a compromise as I could not afford the Level 1 even with the Medicare subsidy. Other than getting used to wearing an OTH HA and glasses, I can hear somewhat better and do not notice the tinnitus when wearing the aids. It’s still not a great improvement except in one on one conversations in a quiet room. I can’t afford to eat out that much anymore (I live near San Francisco) so I haven’t tested them in more than a couple of noisy fast food type restaurants. Any additional comments about the Oticon Real 2 are welcome. I used the Kaiser Permanente Hearing Aid center as that was the only place I could use my Medicare subsidy as a KP member.
Are you enjoying the Bluetooth?
I have to force the HA dome (my left ear) deep to hear anything. I am constantly adjusting it. The bluetooth doesn’t seem to work with my phone for phone calls (Pixel 6.) I am still trying to get a decent interface for playing mp3 music through to the HA from my PC (windows 10). I just read the thread on playing through headsets. I tried it with a headset connected to my TV but it didn’t result in iany real improvement (pun intended.) For Zoom/Google Meets I have used a wired speaker and worn the HA with the BiCros in the right ear.
Unfortunately my fitter/advisor has taken a leave from the dispensary until mid January. I’ll be able to schedule a tuning appointment next month when the hearing center office opens their book for January appointments. I purchased Oticon Real 2 through the through Kaiser Permanente Medicare Advantage so am restricted to using their hearing center.