ClearDynamics made a huge difference in my enjoyment of live music because it eliminates input clipping at the SPL of my guitar playing - not because of frequency response.
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I think if you can hear normal at the higher frequencies (in the 8-10 kHz range), your fitting is probably not completely closed, so you should still be able to hear the high sounds coming through OK. But you don’t need a hearing aid to be able to amplify in the 8-10 kHz range for your normal ear anyway, so whether it’s the More 3 vs More 1 with their difference in frequency response is a moot point for your normal ear anyway.
If your ear has a high frequency loss, then I’d say you don’t lose out that much info between 8-10 kHz. You’re probably already very happy if the hearing aids can even make up for your loss up to 8 kHz that you probably won’t mind missing the remaining 2 kHz range, that is if you can hear the difference at that range with a hearing impaired ear anyway. That’s why they don’t bother extending audiograms beyond the 8kHz point.
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@Volusiano: One thing I’d like someone with your credibility to point out is that hearing aids cannot function as headphones for listening to music in high fidelity. HoH people who want to come close to appreciating their recorded music the way they did when they had normal hearing need proper, high-end semi-open back headphones like these:
These are by no means the most expensive phones, but they’ve worked well for me in the studio, and at home. The user will need a preamp with some kind of semi parametric EQ to compensate for their individual audiogram profile. The phones should basically be EQd to the inverse of the user’s hearing loss.
There’s no way that any hearing aids can move the amount of air necessary to give a “rich and full” listening experience, regardless of their so-called “fitting bandwidth”. To pretend otherwise is to ignore the laws of physics/acoustics and to expect More to deliver something it’s not really designed to do.
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I concur with you that hearing aids are mostly for speech and all-around sounds and don’t have the capability to deliver hifi sounds like some people expected. That’s why they’re only applicable up to around 8 kHz but if you have high frequency hearing loss, realistically it’s going to be hard to make up for any hearing loss beyond that frequency anyway. It’s not a given that if you EQ a set of headphones beyond 8 kHz that you’ll be able to hear well at that upper end like a normal hearing person anymore.
I’d like to add, however, that beside trying to EQ a decent set of headphones to make up for your hearing loss and wear them without (instead of) your hearing aids, another option that I use myself is just to wear the hearing aids AND put the headphones over it. It would work out really well if your hearing aids have the telecoil option. Just select the telecoil program and off you go. Now you can enjoy the low bass that your headphones deliver through the vent hole(s) of your dome (assuming that you don’t use completely closed molds and you have a normal ski slope loss), enjoy the properly amplified mid to upper range through the properly amplified hearing aids. Just don’t expect to be able to hear beytond the 8 kHz range. Or if you really want to, I guess you can try to EQ anything beyond 8 kHz if you want. The problem is that you don’t really know what kind of hearing loss you have beyond 8 kHz in the first place because most audiograms only go up to that end only and not beyond 8 kHz.
Even for my OPN 1s which don’t have the telecoil option, I can still set it up for the Autophone mode to double up the use of the Near Field Magnetic Induction mini coil as a telecoil, then center my OPN 1 in the middle of my ear well (instead of behind the ear to ensure that it’s in close enough proximity of the headphones’ magnetic speakers), and I’d be able to enjoy listening to music through my headphones AND the customized amplification of my hearing aids simultaneously.
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That’s exactly what I do, and it’s a great-sounding solution. But it all starts with the realization that HAs alone, are not the right tools for the job.
People who are looking for HAs alone to provide good hi-fi listening are just not being realistic.
[EDIT: Those who wear RIC moulds like me and not vented domes can just ease the moulds out of the ear canal a bit.]
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I might try the over the headphones to see what happens approach. I have very boring ski slope loss with lower frequencies acceptable. I don’t even try to use my aids to stream music anymore. It just doesn’t sound right, and my headphones sound just fine. The over the aids would be a nice solution as it’s kind of a pain to take the aids out, out on the headphones then put the aids back in after, especially a few times a day. If this works it will simplify my life.
Well the streaming program is easily adjusted in the software, you’ll get it close to how you like it, only problem is it’ll take a bit of trial and error, so you’ll need to do DIY(your audiologist will just get annoyed at the countless hours that could be put into this)
As mentioned I use a set of Marley Bluetooth headphones over my HAs set up with a dedicated music program, and I’m very happy with the results, of course it’s not “perfect” but it’s still very good to listen to my music collection(it’s a big collection,60’s to present trends) including the crappy YouTube music streaming is acceptable.
I don’t use Oticon (these for me have always been a failure in this respect)
The biggest limitation of hearing aids is that they just can’t deliver the nice, tight bass punch one can get from headphones for music. The Oticon OPN and the More has a Power Bass setting in the TV Adapter and Phone and ConnectClip section that can be set to High to give you the perception of better bass. But it’s still no match for the headphones. So when I truly want to enjoy music, I must either use headphones or listen through speakers. Streaming music to just the hearing aids just doesn’t cut it for me no matter how much I can fine tune them. Of course it depends on the kind of music you listen to. Not all music requires a nice tight bass punch.
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As @Volusiano said: it depends what you’re looking for. I derive a lot of pleasure from streaming my music directly from my iPhone to my More1s. The sound is just as good to my brain, when it’s just looking to hum along with Norah Jones and rip off a few of her guitarist’s tasty licks, as listening to an iPod (okay - that’s not quite true, but close enough) …
However, when I was still active in the studio, I wanted to make sure when I was laying down tracks that I could hear and “feed off” the sounds of my fine Gretsches, Gibsons, Martins, Fenders, Taylor, etc. After all - those sounds are the reason why I shelled out so much coin to acquire them. Only phones-over-aids work to deliver that quality of sound to the hearing compromised musician.
Non-players, IMO, will never feel the same drug-like rush as a real player who’s caught up in the magical, synergistic, existential moment when music, emanating from different spirits, comes together in its own “Big Bang”. But - ya gotta be able to hear it to catch the buzz.
[(Good phones) + (loose moulds in ear canals) + (telecoils ON)] = {PDGFADG}
The current music program setup he gave me basically has everything turned off (noise stuff) and lowered the volume a little bit from normal. On the phone’s app I have the bass set all the way up, then the middle and highs are lower. It still sounds tinny to me. The auto stream that it turns to for phone calls is fine, but the same auto stream for music is really lacking. It’s ok for a news video I click on but not really for music at all.
Missing the lower bass and midrange just doesn’t sound right. Those I can still hear. And the higher frequencies sort of roll off in a way that I still get a lot enjoyment from the music. It even makes a difference in things like female vocalists who sound better, even classical where I can lick out orchestra sections. And when it comes to my preference for Alt indie there’s no comparison once the bass is lost.
Maybe with a power solid dome it would be different, but I enjoy having the open domes and it feels less like I’m wearing aids.
But if I can place headphones on top it’s worth a try.
That’s hard for me to speak to, @eskie227, since I’m not a techie … doesn’t the ON app give you enough EQ to boost the bass by, say, +6dB, mids by +3 dB, while attenuating treble by -4 dB (all this as a starting point)?
That’s what I do when streaming, and it sounds pretty good to me. YMMV, of course.
Beside the EQ boost in the ON app, in Genie 2, you can select the Power Bass setting to High (see screenshot example below, at the bottom of the screen) for the Phone, TV Adapter, and ConnectClip. It gives you the perception of better bass, but it’s still not going to be satisfying enough for music listening. Maybe for watching TV shows it may be just adequate. But it’s better than nothing. You’re better off put a plug into your ears to block out any vent from leaking the lows from the hearing aids. If this is still not adequate for you, then using headphones on top of the hearing aids is really the only effective way.
The built-in Music program does not attempt to improve the bass response from what I can tell. It only minimizes any signal processing so you can hear the music sounding even more “open” than with the default program that’s already based on an “open” paradigm.
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You could also do this in Genie software, but with more gain handles, this would be permanent, a lot more control over the streaming.
Yeah this is 2 different Bluetooth profiles/codec, music profile and phone profile, just need to make those adjustments differently.
Agree 100% with you, my point being is to try and find that sweet spot.
Again I agree 100% with this, us amateurs (aka mere mortals ) don’t know for sure what we are missing!
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Sorry if what I said sounds snobbish, but it’s generically true. I’d liken it to a transcendental, almost religious experience. Not sure how to explain it to “mere mortals”.
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I think I mentioned this once before but with Spotify and Apple bringing out their lossless services, I took one of these online tests for “is it worth it?” I used plugged in Sennheiser headphones, and over the six segments they played at 128 bit, 256, 320, and then lossless, I called all six out of the six. I was really surprised given my audiogram, but there was a recognizable compressed sound which continued to open as the MP3’s varied, and then the jump to lossless. I can’t describe it, only it sounded more open and natural at each stage.
Given anything above 2K is going to be a struggle following my audiogram, but I could feel the differences in timbre, openness, allusion of instrument locations, and just a richer experience. I’m not a musician or have “golden ears”, but I cannot deny the difference. Yet when it comes to speech, a higher pitch like my daughter’s voice is impossible to unscramble without my aids (and that bothered by her and me which motivated me to take the step of getting them). It makes no sense whatsoever, but that’s my ear.
Perhaps it would sound less offensive to say that ensemble musicians - like any other performance artists - are highly sensitive to “off” sounds, dynamic accents that don’t belong, errors in meter and intonation etc, etc.
I would imagine that actors, members of pipe and brass bands, all know the feeling to which I’m referring in the moment when it all “comes together”.
I’m not a particular fan of the bagpipes (which are never really perfectly in tune) however, the grand swell of massed pipes on a foggy morn with low barometric pressure is actually AWESOME in the truest sense of the word. But all it takes is a single drone pipe that is enough out of tune to create phase interference with the whole band, and it spoils the moment, as a single drop of ink colours a whole bucket.
Another clunky explanation, but my point is that I doubt any HoH piper (btw - they’re all deaf!) worth his/her salt would say they “get off” on the sound of the pipes through their piddling More1 receivers.
Performance musicians need not be of godlike stature to appreciate and respond to these nuances of sound that (probably?) escape those who have never played.
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As someone that couldn’t carry a tune n a safe, I did have two kids in high school band, and the youngest was first string with the Texas Longhorns Band for all 4 years. I enjoy instrumentals. Not so much instruments and singing together. So I don’t understand or even hear enough true tones to know what they are. More than likely what you know as truly good music I would think was off tone.
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You sure are full of yourself!
You don’t have a clue what those who have never played can feel about music.
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I think you’ve entirely missed the point and perhaps are just looking fot an argument.
I’m not going to be a party to it. All I’ve been saying is that no hearing aids made by man can deliver the kind of sound that musicians need to connect with one another and the music.
I never said anything about what non-musicians feel or don’t feel when they’re appreciating their music.
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I am like you Chuck, nearly all music sounds way out of tune, unless it is from an era of my
pre-deafness, and I can play the music inside my head through memory whilst listening, but alas my memory, like my hearing is fading, both were at one time fairly prestigious, having very little music in my life now is a bitter pill to swallow, folk festivals were my favourite, but in truth I loved all genres, including punk, and some country, the latter being my least favoured… From classical to heavy rock, I listened intently, and would recall instantaneously a song or tune by the opening intro, a few bars was enough… Ahh, the trials and tribulations of hearing loss! Cheers Kev.
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