@eliotb, thanks for the suggestion. Since my audiology practice charges around $6K for top technology level aids, I might save $1.5K. But I’m very satisfied now — they provide excellent and comprehensive service, a few miles from my home. I just contacted Zip Hearing mainly out of curiosity. The provider recommended by Zip doesn’t have a great rating in Washington Consumer Checkbook, while mine has a rating in the high 90’s, which is what led me to them a few years ago.
2 Likes
The audio from the phone could be easily changed by the audi via Genie programming software
in the End Fitting step.
If voices sound extremely harsh → change the setting for “Sound Qualty” to the left side to “Fuller” , and with each step to the left the high frequencies get reduced -3dB.
If the volume overall way too low → change the “Phone loudness” to the right for “Louder” , first step is +3dB , the second most right step is +9dB
M relative to phone is for the loudnes of the Microphone, the most right is 0dB , the most left setting is -12dB reduction for microphone
This is from the Help inside Genie2
The phone settings are used when the instruments are paired with a mobile phone via Bluetooth.
You can adjust the general sound perception:
Phone loudness
- Adjusts the streamed signal, making it softer or louder. The change does not affect the signal from the instrument microphones.
M relative to phone
- Adjusts the level of the instrument microphones relative to the streamed signal, which is useful if there is background noise.
- When set to 0 dB, the microphones will be set to the same level as in P1.
Sound quality
- Adjusts the tonal balance of the low (LF) and the high frequencies (HF).
Power Bass
- Select the level of Power Bass to improve deep bass dynamics.
2 Likes
WOW!!! How can I set you up remotely to be my Oticon audi?!?!
I had a long walk & talk with hubs today … these Oticons are LAME. Why? Cuz the audi considered ME lame and a waste of her time. Perhaps cuz the trial was free? I don’t know. I am 50% there to return these and find another dispenser/audi with Oticon experience. It shouldn’t be this way.
I can hear the potential of these Oticons. We walked past gardeners blowing stuff at 110 dB. I had NO trouble hearing my husband as we talked, but he said, “Wait till we’re out of range from the gardeners cuz I can’t HEAR you.”
Over a cappuccino I had a brain-fart. If my current (and EXCELLENT Phonak) audi can’t do the Oticon fitting (she had to refer me to the Oticon gal), I’ll call my previous one across the country and see if he could set it up, ship it, and tweak it remotely. Isn’t that the whole purpose behind the “Remote Care” feature in the app?
I don’t want to throw in the towel, but I’ve been tossed a rubber crutch. I can’t make a valid purchase decision with such a half-a$$ed setup. We’re going out to the NOISIEST place in town for dinner, and I bet the Oticons will be way better than my Phonaks - even with the Roger mic.
Then I’m gonna compose an email to the audi and let her know the truth. I can drop these off on Monday and look elsewhere. The phone, BT, sound quality, lack of volume buttons and no TV Adapter is rendering this trial a bad joke. I take some blame too cuz I should’ve downloaded and read the manual before my app’t. I should’ve at least come with a list of dedicated programs to have set up, but I didn’t see anything on the Oticon specs except Speech in Noise.
Well, at least your post lets me know what IS possible. I just have to find someone to make it happen for me. Dang I wish I had the time and mind to learn Genie myself. But is that what critical medical devices have become? Just toss 'em at the person and say “Don’t let the door slam you on the way out!”
3 Likes
Bold statement 
1 Like
YES. Bold indeed! I have always felt from Day 1 of the Rogers that they deliver a very HARSH, public address type of sound quality. On top of which - even with the myRoger app - I am unable to block out the infuriating ambient NOISE that’s all over the place.
In restaurants, if the aids are in tabletop mode, I hear a rat in the kitchen scratching on the cupboard to get at yesterday’s bread. If I turn off the “pie pieces” to make that focus on the person across the table, I get to hear his tummy rumbling louder than our conversation. I’m exaggerating here, but the Roger is just TOO MUCH sound. It doesn’t help me focus on human speech. That’s all I want in a noisy place. Neither the dedicated “Speech in Noise” nor the Roger can deliver easy conversation.
I had a mute function added so at least the sound when using a Roger is ONLY coming from that device, but the audio quality is so painful I want to bang someone on the head with a hammer - preferably someone who invented this mic. 
That is why I’m trying the Oticon and casting about for how to make the best of a lame trial.
3 Likes
WHOA! Where did your post go?!? I read it, was gonna get back to you on it. Went to dinner to do my NOISY JOINT test, came back, and your post is gone. So please resurrect it and if anything message it to me. It was chock full of info and advice that I totally concurred with.
In other dismal news … we did get to THE NOISIEST place we’d ever eaten at here in town. I guess tourist season is over cuz there were 2 other people in it the entire time until our bill arrived … as a few more tables filled up and a party of 6 were seated across from us.
I walked in with my Oticons on. Hubs was bugged by music I barely heard in default program. When I put the Oticons into Speech in Noise, things got LOUDER and NOISIER. So I whipped out my phone, looked at the Companion app and lowered the volume. I was surprised to learn (cuz I got ZERO instruction from audi) that each program can be tinkered with re volume and equalizer. I made changes and it was ok. Nothing dramatic.
Then I swapped aids and put in my Phonak Lumity Life aids. Sound wasn’t too bad in default, and it was a notch better in Speech in Loud Noise. Hm. Got out the Roger mic that I’d had charged up in its base and instantly, BOOM! Lots of noise! Too much, in fact. I could tell the Roger mic was ON and working, but I wanted to play with the various modes: Tabletop, Pointer, default.
So I launched the myRoger app to see if I could select Tabletop and then turn off the pie slices till it was focused on hubs. Didn’t work. For the first time ever, BT could not detect WHICH of my two (REDUNDANT) Rogers I had with me. 
A window opened with Roger On iN V2 listed TWICE. Almost immediately, I got an error message saying “Roger On connecction failed.” You’d think it would somehow know which Roger was ON here, but when I opened myRoger app, it first said, “Connecting Roger On iN V2…” and then “Roger On iN V2 disconnected”. So I was never able to change the programs (default, Table, Pointer).
Got home, tried my other (redundant) Roger mic that’d and this time it connected voila with NO prob! I was able to select any program and make changes! But only to that Roger mic. The other one refuses to connect or be found by the stoooopid MyRoger phone app.
Utterly nonplussed as to what-all is happening, I can only conclude that my test tonight was unsatisfying and almost inconclusive. In a nutshell, Phonak Lumity Life aids are a smidge better - EVEN IN NOISE! I think that’s probably cuz they were never set up correctly. But on the other hand, why can’t myRoger find my other REDUNDANT mic here? I can use that mic perfect - as long as I never need to tinker with settings, cuz myRoger can’t find it for love nor money.
Glucas, you’d mentioned that my audi needs to set up the Roger software too. She has not done that. I wonder if she even knows it has settings?
1 Like
Ah, you just brought my faith in Phonak back to “Life” 
Your roger connection problem, maybe due to you having 2 roger close to your hearing aids, I wonder if you’ve turned your phone off and on again, if the problem would have persisted?
Yes, in Target there are few settings to tweak roger, you could potentially test them at your HCP.
See below:
Never underestimate rats in the kitchen, they could be the one who prepare the food!!!
3 Likes
Hi 1Bluejay,
Sorry, I deleted the post as there was a section of it where I was not explaining myself very well and I wasn’t sure whether you had been down the same road anyway, and it was late - lol.
OK. It’s morning and my boss isn’t looking… lol. So I will rewrite the post. This is going to be a very long post so apologies (and apologies to the other members), but I thought it might be worth putting it all out there, as there could be mutual benefit. I am going to say a lot of things, they may not seem relevant at first, but I think the relevance will become clearer.
Phonak and Oticon
As I said, your posts are of interest because you have a similar audiogram to me and you wear predominantly, Phonak aids. You had an unsuccessful trial with the Oticon OPN. I too wear Phonak aids predominantly (since 1994) but have also worn Oticon on 3 other occasions (since 1989), but I have never worn the OPN. However, 2 years ago I was fitted with superpower hearing aids, the Oticon Dynamo 8 and this was one of the aids where “Brainhearing” for speech cues was first mentioned. As you may know, here in the UK we have the NHS. This is a mixed experience. Generally there is an upgrade every 3 years, but it depends on the post code (zip code) lottery and people get various levels of service from bad to excellent. I was not upgraded for 6 years, but this time around they upgraded me. This is the thing, as you say in America, at first, being reasonably technology savvy, I was a bit sniffy about these aids. I was unimpressed. It was 2022 and here I was being fitted with something I thought was from the stone age. It was a 2015 model, no direct bluetooth and BTE hearing aids to boot, which were obviously not as discreet as my KS10s.
Oticon Dynamo - the superpower aid - and realisations
OK. So they are BTE hearing aids. I put them on at home, I listen to music. It sounds poor, but otherwise the sound is clear. They were programmed with REM and NAL-NL2. They sound similar to my KS10s and they get relegated as a back up for my private KS10s. They go into the draw. In the summer of 2022 I go on a bike tour and put them in my panniers. I have a problem with my KS10s and I have to switch to them, and I start wearing them. They are OK, but I got home and put them back in the draw for 6 months.
After Xmas around 2023, I am thinking about music and hearing issues and I remembered long ago that the NHS adjusted the gain in one of my reassessment sessions of a previous Oticon hearing aid. I contact my NHS audiology department and ask them do this. They increase the gain, something like 6dB to 10dB. I go home and listen to music and I realise that it sounds fantastic. OK - just to give some background here, with the KS10s (even after REM), music sounds rubbish - this has always been an issue for me. It sounds good streaming, but not in the car or listening to loud music. However, with the Oticon, it sounds fantastic. I almost have tears in my eyes. I have not heard music as good as this for 25 years. It reminds me of my younger days with analogue hearing aids. Why is this? Well - I conclude, as it’s a super power aid, it’s the power (this is only partly correct - see later).
Music
OK. Let me stop at this point in the story and talk about the relevance. Well - I have been fit with REM from two providers, and in one aspect, both failed - enjoyment of music. Why did they fail? And why did I not realise it after my fitting. A few possible reasons, firstly, there was no test of my loudness perception. I am used to wearing analogue hearing aids, so I can tolerate loud sounds. However, the programmer limits the MPO and makes sure the output is not at dangerous levels. That is possibly one reason. Another reason, I did not think digital hearing aids were capable of delivering music. The chief audiologist at the NHS told me that the fitting strategies were at odds with music and it was not likely they could program it so I could enjoy it. However, the music on the Oticon Dynamo was unbelievable. The music sounded good quiet, in noise conditions and loud. How could this be? I have only just realised the main reason (through some playing around on Target and understanding the effects with my Phonaks). The reason for me was that the Mids were not loud enough.
Oticon Dynamo - The Car
When we travel as a family, we take my wife’s car and I get relegated by my eldest daughter to the back seat. It’s winter 2023. I decide to take my Oticon Dynamos to listen to music in the car as I know it sounds better (fantastic in fact). Whilst listening to music, I discover that I am hearing my wife and daughter talking in the front. What? I am enjoying the music and I can hear my wife and daughter talking. I cannot hear them with my KS10s, despite the “car program” or any other program. Their voices are reasonably clear. How can this be? When I am wearing KS10s (which are a 2020 model), programmed with REM and NAL-NL2 I do not understand them. The Oticon Dynamos are also programmed with REM and NAL-NL2 and the technology is 5 years older and I am understanding them in the car, with the noise. The reason? In hindsight, is the Mids. The mids were too low on the KS10s. Again, the relevance?
The relevance is that, for me, is that the problems with Music were interconnected with problems elsewhere. The lack of gain in the Mids had a knock on effect of my understanding of speech in noise.
The Unitron Vivantes and the Oticon Dynamo - The Conference
I start to wear the Oticon Dynamo more. They are not my mainstay as they do not have the direct bluetooth and I have a lot of Skype and Zoom meetings, so I have to wear the KS10s, or more recently I underwent a trial of Unitron Vivantes, as I want to upgrade to the Lumity equivalent. This is a RIC.
The trial started in December 2023. Initially it was good. The Vivantes have the Sword chip and I am impressed by the bluetooth handling and the car program and the general clarity. One disadvantage of these aids, is that they are Specsavers (an international opticians here in the UK) and are locked. I cannot program them. However, I trial them for 3 months. They are very good, but there are a couple of experiences that prove to be deal breakers. I have a bad experience in noise when I go to a really noisy pub with my brother and his wife at Xmas. I play around with the App settings and believe that I may be able to resolve these issues the next time with the App. In early March I go to an open day for students who have been accepted at University, with my daughter and wife. The experience is harrowing. There are over 100 people there and I have one of the worst experiences in noise in 25 years. People are talking to me directly and I cannot hear their voices. The voices are just lost in the noise. We go into a canteen and it continues. An excruciating, embarrassing experience. I go home and immediately contact the Specsavers audiologist and decide to upgrade to the Phonak Lumity Naida SP BTE. I do not know why the Unitron Vivantes performed so badly. I believe the Mids may not have been loud enough. But I decided to upgrade to the BTE because I also believed that music would sound better.
In the meantime, the following week, I go to a Cambridge conference, which is a talk by Brian Cox, a cosmologist. I take the Oticon Dynamos. They are wonderful. I can hear him and the people around me in the noisy interval.
Phonak Lumity Naida SP BTE
I switch to the Phonak Lumity Naida SP. This is a BTE, less discreet but about the same size as the Oticon Dynamo, which is impressive, for it’s power. The audiologist starts me off with the fitting formula APD (Adaptive Phonak Digital) 2.0. I am initially impressed with the music but experience a couple of false dawns regarding their performance in noise. A simple trip with my wife to a restaurant reveals they are quite good. But a subsequent experience in French class reveals a lot of problems. I decide to ask to switch back to NAL-NL2. This seems a lot better and I am currently still evaluating it.
Fitting Process and severe to profound loss
Personally, and I know the industry are trying to take steps to redress this, a lot of problems are rooted in a lack of testing to see if the hearing aids are optimally set up to work in all of the various environments that we have to undergo. The walk around the warehouse test in Costco is woefully inadequate. There is quiet, hearing in noise, hearing in loud noise, hearing in the car, listening to music. We all want our hearing aids to be optimised in every one of those situations, but there does not seem to be a scientific, deterministic way of seeing if they are.
I can see your problems in noise, and I mentioned last night that as you seem like a person of means, I would recommend that you find a real expert, who is experienced with dealing with severe to profound loss. Some of my problems have been rooted in a poor fit caused by a lack of gain in the Mids. It could be that there is too much gain in the Mids in your case, but that is idle speculation. But along those lines, there could be room for adjustments that may optimise your hearing in noise.
There is also the BTE V RIC argument. In hindsight I am now unconvinced that the RIC form factor is best for my loss, but in saying that, I may have had, by chance, a better programming experience, as explained above, with my Oticon Dynamo than with the RICS. However I think it’s true that BTE superpower hearing aids are specifically optimised for our loss, regardless of the fact they employ more gain and output. I have read white papers from both Oticon and Phonak where they claim this. They say super power aids employ fitting formulas and strategies designed for people in the severe to profound category. One strategy is less compression and more linear gain when presented with loud sounds, which means we have a chance to understand more voices above the noise floor. The Naida Lumity SP and UP has 2 receivers in each aid. Other makes may have other features optimised for severe to profound loss. For this reason it might be worth trailing one. On the other hand I have seen one person who had a flat loss of 90dB who was successfully fit with a RIC Oticon Real, so who knows? The issue is also that, as you probably know, the most current releases of hearing aids are always featured in RICS, and they always claim to have more benefits e.g. the Oticon Intent with their improvements claimed in improved signal to noise ratios. However, one has to decide if these benefits outweigh those of wearing an SP or UP aid.
With respect to the questions about Roger, if you look at the following under the RogerDirect + mic tab:
You can see options for Adaptive Microphone Behaviour, SoundRelax, NoiseBlock and Soft noise reduction. I found that changing the Microphone Behaviour to dual my help, as it just uses the Roger mic and cuts out the hearing aid mics. NoiseBlock may help as it will reduce noise by up to 10dB. You could try mentioning this to the Audiologist.
I hope that helps, sorry for the long post again. The post is not meant to present any solutions. The only real conclusion I can come to is that this is a process that takes a long time to resolve, because of the complexity of our losses. It may be, that in the case of speech in noise, and multiple, dynamic talkers, we are shooting for the moon. It is a problem that is maybe beyond the capabilities of these aids. However, the reason for the long post was to demonstrate, in some small way, that persistent alterations do make a difference and it may be that there is room for more improvement once the set up is optimised further.
8 Likes
My reply is late since he’s already reposted. But FYI for 24 hours after a post is marked to be deleted, the deletion is just an additional edit that changes it to the deletion notice. So you can go to the pen icon and see what was there before it was marked for deletion.
2 Likes
AH-HA! Thank you so much for sharing that tip! LOL, the things I don’t know …
Humbling.
1 Like
GLAD you haven’t jumped from the ledge with your Phonaks IN. 
I’m on Day 3, and it’s still a draw - but mainly cuz of the Oticon setup. There’s only so much I can alter in the Companion phone app. I’ve tinkered with General volume & equalizer (bass, mid-, highs) and Speech in Noise equalizer. Now I’m drawing up a list to share with the audi to see if she could make some more changes REMOTELY? That’s what the Companion app says can be done.
I had the same thought about just rebooting my Android phone. I’m having a lot of BT instability with these Oticons. I haven’t found the formula for getting these to stream UPON STARTUP every day. Instead, I have to go through yada yada of re-pairing, connecting, soon after which they are disconnected, then i make sure I check LE audio and try it all over again. Then for good measure, turn BT OFF/ON and see if my Oticons are still connected properly. Sometimes the aids show up on the list of Paired Devices, but I’m not able to click the Systems icon to see that LE Audio, Left aid, Right aid are all showing up as connected, too.
That’s usually when the phone rings with a call that comes in NOT streaming. Grrrr…
As for the Phonaks & Rogers, I finally got that protocol worked out for my TWO Roger ON iN sticks. To know which one of these two Rogers is active, I named them “Dark” and “Champagne”:
- Turn on myRoger app
- Click on the 3 horizontal lines in top LEFT
- Click on Roger On icon at top of list
- Now click on the name that displays at top (Champagne, Dark)
- Now turn that Roger mic on
- In a few seconds you should see the options: Auto, Table, Pointing…
Whew.
At least I haven’t heard Ratty scratchin’ in my OWN kitchen … yet. He’d probably eat my aids and then I’d be sunk.
1 Like
Wait for Costco to offer the Philips 9050 hearing aids. Also made by Demant, they are nearly identical to the Intent 1. Costco charges $1,499 and includes 180 day trial period, a 3 year warranty, 2 year loss protection and all maintenance & supplies for the life of your aids.
I currently use the Philips 9040s and couldn’t be happier with the sound quality and the services I receive from the Costco Hearing Center.
2 Likes
I have found with my Jabra Enhance Pro 20s and Galaxy S23s that turning OFF LE Audio gives A LOT more stability with connections, streaming and both ears hearing sound. You may be having a similar experience.
1 Like
Bluejay, I am new to H/A’s and had a pair of Starkey, they were comfortable, but being retired I spend a lot of time at home in the garden/ garage or quiet house, no TV so thats not a problem.
The problem was the Audi bit like yours, but she was economical with the truth then lied when questioned. I asked if thy were compatible with BT , phone and tablet, both Android 6 and 10 yearsold respectively, “Oh yes” she said. I could pair them with both my machines but no BT with tablet or the Starkey Software. I could load the Starkey software to the phone. Even though they were both paired to the phone only one showed upon the software, though I could tweak the settings and create my own. We don’t frequent restaurants and certainly not noisy ones, only fine dining with lots of soft furnishings and carpets which absorbs sound plus the clientele tend not to be the loud drunken youth, but are also wearing hearing aids. So they didn’t get a good test. I wore them in a supermarket and was having a conversation with an older couple andhad trouble with the ladies voice but did not want to takemy phone outand fiddle with it as I consider it bad manners. At the time I didn’t know I could change the volume using the on/off buttons , it was never written down , nor was it in the software or told to me by the Audi, more lies as she said she had.
As I was paying GB £ 4000 for the pair I expected them to do everything it said on the tin regardless of my devices. Starkey themselves who I contacted suggested a Mic+ which would give me BT and I was quite happy to give that a try, but they would have to supply it FOC. I happened to mention Trading Standards a couple of times in emails, which they didn’t like to hear as a threat, which meant they were covering up poor selling.
They asked for the aids back and gave me a full refund.
Plus the Audio was not an Anglo Saxon and could lie with a strait face and had no scruples.
Looking backshe seemed to steer me to Starkey as opposed to Oticon with a bit of bait and switch, finding a lrge over the ear receiver from Oticon and tweaking the sound before hand.
Seems private H/A’s are the new Double Glazing and Solar Roof Panels, promise you the earth until they have your money then don’t deliver on their lies.
To practice as an Audio but under another name they don’t need any academic training. Mine was a qualified Audio with Bsc & MSC but was more intent on selling them for her little bonus from Starkey or her company, though if she was a consultant, could have been self employed.
So I am without them now and for most of the time it doesn’t matter, just those odd noisy situations when I am talking to someone.
I need to start wearing them before I get much older so I am used to them. Just need to source another place.
You tend to loose confidence in the peripheral medical proffession when money is involved, as normal health care is free here, but hearing, dentistry, podietry is chargeable.
At one time you could go to your GP and have your ears syringed free, now they have stopped doing it and it costs £70 for 10 minutes work by Audios and others.
2 Likes
@glucas
Thanks for taking the time to post this again. You’ve worked hard! So many edits.
I’ve often wondered why we can’t we listen to music and enjoy it with our hearing aids? And why do so many of us complain we can’t understand speach in noise?
(My first jeep had death wobble. Heard the dealer say a number of times, “It’s a Jeep Thing!” Later a new dash cam confirmed they were parking it against the wall, running. Then taking it for a slow test drive and saying that they couldn’t repeat my problem.)
My second Jeep is much better.
Hearing aids. Setup is so important. Maybe the HA makers will have a focus group we can all participate in, so they can see how the HA’s really work.
DaveL
3 Likes
Ha! I Get the metaphor.!
I think this stuff is exhausting but hope we all get there eventually.
To be honest, in all seriousness, I think somebody should compile a list of bona fide, expert fitters and audiologists who can troubleshoot and sort out our complex hearing problems.!
1 Like
AH! That is interesting, cuz I was having the BT issues when LE was OFF. So I’d turn it ON. Getting to that 2nd step tho is fraught cuz BT won’t let me select the aid even tho it shows it is connected.
OK, that tip is worth it’s weight in GOLD. I wonder if all Costcos have that generous trial period and warranty?
1 Like
I feel for what you went through with the Starkey aids. My previous audiologist (who’s clear across the country from me, necessitating my finding a new one) said he’d just refer those interested in Starkey to some other hearing clinic. He’d heard too many tales of woe like your’s and didn’t even want to “go there”.
I’m intrigued with these Oticons, but as one poster said: “Wait for Costco to release them” at a fraction of the price! 
1 Like
I found my first hearing aid fitter in the yellow pages. 1 Widex in the ear HA. I couldn’t afford two. 10 years It squealed so much when I ate! So they remade it. It hurt! If I was stressed out i took it out. I could hear 50 feet behind me in a noisy cafeteria. I couldn’t hear a speaker 4 feet in front of me at all.
Next time my hearing was so bad I qualified for workman’s compensation. I found the best audi ever! I was referred to her. First set of Phonaks were miracles for me. Every visit I came out hearing so much better. She sold her business…I was there maybe 3 years?
I went to another audi by referral. 8 years. One partner was good; she retired…the other one stayed on. After 6 years they sold me my second set of Phonaks. I couldn’t hear in quiet. I almost got run over at work because I couldn’t hear behind. They sold their business to Sonova. I left
Third audi was a real gentleman. Very polite. He got me the hearing aids that I have now. It was his setup that I couldn’t hear in quiet offices or noisy areas. couldn’t hear at home. It was most stressful. I’m in the flightpath of an international airport. 80 dB outside when a plane is overhead. In the 60’s inside when a plane’s overhead. His google ratings are all 5’s! He erased my hearing aids and did a quick fit. I’d give him a 1.
How do we find a good audi? Or hearing aid practitioner? I think I have to ask people at work. And on construction sites.
I’ve attempted to network and find good audi’s that way. It worked the first time.
1 Like