I set max values on my main program. I’ll check that. Thanks
You can’t check yourself. If you really want to know which standard target rationale your audi used when performing the REM adjustments for you, only your audi would know because he/she decided which standard rationale to target to. I just threw out NAL-NL2 as a target because it’s a very common standard rationale used, but your audi could have used NAL-NL1 or DSL v5.0 Adult or whatever else that suits him/her.
If you have no clue what a fitting rationale is, it’s a complex set of equations developed to determine that if your hearing loss at frequency X is so much, and your MPO at X is so much (as inputs to the equations), then the gain set should be set to so much (as the result from the equations). They have rationales and goals on what they want to achieve in terms of what the compensated gain should be. But there is not just 1 standard out there. NAL-NL1 is “a” previous standard but rationales/goals get revised/improved and NAL-NL2 became the newer standard. DSL is another standard, and apparently it has progressed to version 5.0 already. And there are 2 flavors of DSL, one for adult and one for kids (pediatric). All of these standards are available in Genie 2, along with VAC+, for your selection.
But very often, many major HA mfgs decide that they can do better with their own proprietary fitting rationale that works best with their hearing aids, and works best based on their own research. For example, Oticon came up with their own proprietary Voice-Aligned-Compression (or VAC+). It’s been said that they also tweak it to make it work better for revers ski slope hearing loss, among other things. Some of the controls on Genie 2 like the Sound Controls Brightness Perception and Soft Sound Perception are only available for the VAC+ rationale and will be greyed out if you choose a different/standard rationale.
Because VAC+ is a proprietary fitting rationale to Oticon, they don’t release it to the public so the HCPs can adjust REM based on the VAC+ target. The HCPs only have access to the standard rationales, so they can only use these as the target. But in doing so, they effectively altered the VAC+ “sound” into a different “sound”, that of the standard they use as the target.
Below is a description of VAC+;
So much info… so much. I had to read it twice… and yet…
So what do you suggest?
Maybe I could simply ask my audi which rationale… formula… or whatever she used when she’s done my REM?
And after I get her answer… what’s the incidence on what I can or cannot or should do as a self experimenting patient?
Maybe I prematurely jumped the gun and opened up a can of worms by bringing up the issue of using a different/standard/non-VAC+ fitting rationale as the target on REM on a Genie 2 program that uses VAC+. Whether it’s really an issue or not and applies to your situation or not depends on different scenarios.
Scenario 1: If your HCP uses external REM hardware/software to do manual REM adjustments, then he/she cannot target to VAC+ because it’s proprietary and the HCP simply does not have access to it as a target when using external hardware/software to do REM. So the HCP would have to pick a non-VAC+ rationale for a target. In this scenario then you should be aware that the target gain and the produced (actual) gain are not only different due to the fitting factors (your ear canal, open or close domes or custom molds, HA performance, etc), but can also be different due to the
Scenario 2: If your HCP uses REM hardware that’s compatible to interface with Genie 2 and uses the REM Autofit feature inside of Genie 2 as the REM software, then I think this should give her access to VAC+ as a target because Genie 2 is the Oticon proprietary software and it should know how to calculate the target for VAC+, and will even do autofit for her to automatically adjust the actual gain to match with the VAC+ target. You can read the online help some more on REM Autofit
So what you can ask your audi is which scenario above applies to your case? Did she use REM Autofit inside Genie 2 to do REM, or did she use completely external hardware and software to do REM. If the later, which standard rationale she chose for your target.
If you have more than 1 programs in the More 1 (it can hold up to 4), then did she apply REM adjustments on all programs, or which one(s)?
The ones she apply REM adjustments to, you want to document their original values in the Fine Tuning/Gain Control carefully so you can reset them to these values if you tinker with things too much and don’t like it and want to return to ground zero again and reset.
If you copy these programs, then their built-in REM adjustment should carry over to the new program. This is based on common sense logic, but it should be verifiable by comparing the gain values in the Fine Tuning -> Gain Control section.
If you create/add a new program without doing a copy, there’s a good chance that these newly created programs don’t have REM adjustments done one them, unless Genie 2’s REM Autofit is smart enough to preserve the REM adjustments somewhere and automatically apply these adjustments to the newly created program. This part I don’t really know and I can’t find any documentation that says one way or the other. It would be something you can ask your audi. The way you can ask without revealing to her that you plan to DIY is just to say “Every time you add a new program for me in the More 1, do you have to run REM again on that program? Or is the software (Genie 2) smart enough to apply the previous REM adjustment to the new program?”
I have been experimenting for a month now using the Genie 2 software. I kinda understand what all the features do and can tweak different programs for different circumstances. The only thing I don’t like is the feeling of doing trial and error with the curves in the Gain Control. I wish I could do that more “scientifically”, based on my audiogram. Sometimes I overshoot the target and here many sounds like tin cans, or S and Sh sounds sounding like a distorted flute. And sometimes I am maybe too low and sounds are maybe giving a sense of comfort but in second thought are actually lacking highs and sound dull. Also I tried to target the right frequencies using videos of different kinds of voices and playing with a high resolution equalizer, to see which bands actually needs boosting to make the voices clearer to me. Is that a good way to do it? Because in the end something is always wrong.
I bet some of you went through this learning curve and can share their light with me.
Actually I try to not mess with the Fine Tuning -> Gains Control at all, for the exact reason that you mentioned, it’s like pure experimentation / wild shots in the dark. Maybe a couple of times is OK. But several times is exhausting and you can find yourself running in circles. I didn’t learn this from experience through wild goose chases. I just intuitively told myself to stay away from that can of worms.
Because I self program, I forgo the luxury of being able to have REM done, which is OK by me. So I rely on the in-situ audiometry feature to re-measure my threshold hearings using the actual hearing aids I wear which should be more accurate than the initial one done in the booth by the HCP. So I re-prescribe the gains from my in-situ audiometry result to be more accurate. By the way, you can also compare side by side your original audiogram vs the in-situ result to see how far off you are.
Anyway, the reason I mention the in-situ re-prescription is that instead of making the Gain Controls adjustments in the Fine Tuning section which is exhausting and can be futile at times unless it’s just a minor tweak or two with good results, I use my in-situ data to adjust instead and let Genie 2 re-prescribe. For example, if I feel like I need to boost some lows, instead of tweaking the several handles in Fine Tuning -> Gain Controls, I just increase the threshold values in my in-situ result at the frequency(ies) I want a notch or so, then let Genie 2 re-prescribe. That way, the small adjustment I make via the in-situ manifests itself through the re-prescription to all aspects of the Gain Controls in Fine Tuning, from Soft to Medium to Loud areas altogether at once.
Same with going the reverse, I reduce the threshold in in-situ to reduce the gain through re-prescription.
Below is a screenshot of my in-situ page. As you can see, I decided to give up on amplifying from 4 KHz and up because all I hear are the buzzing mechanical sounds of the receivers, so I decide to not amplify them at all, and just use frequency lowering to hear sounds in those ranges. So in the in-situ audiogram, I just lower the thresholds for those 3 data points at 4, 6 and 8 KHz to the lowest values allowed. As a result, you can see on my gain curves on the second screenshot that I no longer have amplification in that range (the gray vertical source bands), but instead, frequency lowering moves the sounds in that gray band down to the red/blue destination bands for me instead.
You can also see that my original audiogram shows lower thresholds in the lower frequency range up to 500 or 1 KHz. But in-situ says that I need higher thresholds in that low area for both ears, so that’s how I’d make the change in my Gain Controls to automatically happen, via the gain re-prescription based on the in-situ data.
Is there a way to experiment with the in-situ audiogram without messing with my REM and settings? Is my REM saved into my filed profile? Could I build an alternate profile with which to experiment in-situ and be able to load back my original profile with REM if I want to?
Try saving your settings first.
The in-situ re-prescription would probably mess up your REM adjustments for sure if the REM was done manually using REM equipment outside of Genie 2.
If REM was done using the Genie 2 REM Autofit feature then maybe there’s some smart in there to retain the REM adjustment on in-situ re-prescription although I’d have not idea on this. Only your HCP can answer this.
But in-situ re-prescription should only change the gain curves and should not mess with other settings you already have, although I’d check for the Sound Controls settings and the Power Bass settings to see if they’ve changed. If you have Speech Rescue turned on (I assume you don’t), then Genie 2 will ask if you want the re-prescription to recalculate the Speech Rescue configuration as well.
I’d say for initial experimentation, it’d be cleanest to just build a brand new profile to start out from scratch, then do the in-situ and re-prescribe and see what your simulated gain curve looks like compared to your target gain curve. You can also now compare this new profile side by side with the original profile done with REM to see how they compare. You can also load either of the profiles into your HAs to see which one you prefer.
Hi, my name is art & I am a senior, I recently got pair of oticon exceeds from va. I have severe hearing loss & am having problems with getting rid of speech distortions from the exceeds. Saw my audiologist for 2nd time & she was reluctant to try to do much tuning. She said problem was compression & she could not do much. When I requested that she use genie to do a (not sure this is right word) fine tune, she installed an analog program as optional. I asked her if she could help me learn enough to self use genie. She said that was a BIG NO NO. So, from what little I know, compression problems could be solved by modifying attach & release setting (GENIE??), which genie might be able to do?
I downloaded genie & have read what little is available on using genie to self fit.
From what I can see genie has more fitting capability than most other hearing aids.
I am far from being an audiologist, how do I find info on trying the genie in-situ amplitude changes, & frequency tranfers?
Any advise will be greatly appreciated. thanks.
You will also need to buy a hardware interface as well in order to program your Exceed with the Genie 2 program. But if you just want to explore Genie 2 and “simulate” for now, that’s fine, too.
From what I can tell, Genie 2 doesn’t let you modify the compression values directly. There’s no modifying attack and release settings like you mentioned.
You can only adjust the gains in the Fine Tuning -> Gain Controls section for Soft, Moderate and Loud input levels for each of the frequency handle. Doing an in-situ audiometry is basically just running an audiogram test but using the actual hearing aids you wear instead of using the headphones in the audio booth like the audi did for you. Then if it’s different than your original audiogram from the audi, you can choose to have Genie 2 re-prescribe the gain curves to the in-situ result instead of the audiometry result that was input by your audi.
Go to the online help for Genie 2 and review all the options closely there. That’s probably your best friend in terms of explaining things to you.
There’s no frequency transfer, but maybe you meant frequency lowering (Speech Rescue). You don’t post your audiogram on your avatar so I don’t really know if frequency lowering can help you or not.
Trying to debug speech distortion is not trivial. It can stem from many different things. I don’t even know what you mean by speech distortion. I would highly advise you to save your original setting before messing around with things. But I think you have an unrealistic idea that you can easily tweak this and that in Genie 2 and it’ll easily solve the issue for you. It may not be a software programming issue after all, but instead is a hardware fitting issue that needs to be solved by your audi.
As far as your audi installing an analog program on the Xceed for you, I’m not aware of any built-in program in Genie 2 that’s an analog program. The closest program that minimizes most of the processing in Genie 2 is the Music program.
Good for you to try and help yourself.
I believe changing the fitting algorithm might help you.
Worth a try.
thanks for info. audi definitely said analog.
I assume that you’re going to download Genie 2 and if no interface hardware, still are going to go into simulation so you can browse around and see for yourself that there are no internally built-in program in Genie 2 called “Analog”. It’s possible that the audi was referring to the Music program and “redubbed” it “analog” to convey to you that here’s a built-in program that has minimal processing, similar to an analog program. After all, the Oticon HAs are all digital HAs.
So have you tried this “analog” program set by your audi to see if it helps with speech distortion?
Yeah so this would be the fitting formula DSLv5a, one for adults that can be set up and sound very much like “analogue”
so now I have 2 fitting programs. first determined by rem, word buzzing.
2nd ,(the analog??, set up by audi on 2nd visit), slightly less word buzzing.
what ticks me off is the genie program looks like it has capacity to tweek fittings by frequency, & possibly address/reduce my problem. dont know enough about fitting hearing aids to reach conclusion. audi does not seem interested…
This is not unusual, you could just find another one who is…maybe
Genie can and does have full access to all the adjustments available, so yes this is going to help.
Time for DIY for you, it’s pretty easy you don’t need a degree to do it, there’s plenty of people from right here on hearingtracker that can help you do this, use the search button at the top of the page and search the DIY. All you need is the programming device (Noahlink wireless) and Genie software.
Check your PM.
thanks for reply.
what interface connector do you suggest I get, to be able to use genie on windows 10 laptop & interface with oticon exceed hearing aid?
I have already downloaded genie & looked at it, trying to understand how to use it.
As far as the 2nd program (analog??) the audi set up , its a marginal improvement.
does oticon have any on line help that might assist me?
not to happy with my va audiologst performance.
You’ll need the Noahlink Wireless.
Note: there are other Noahlink but you need to make sure you get the wireless Noahlink.
Below is the compatibility chart between the various Oticon HAs and the various hardware interface. But Zebras is right that you really should get the Noahlinnk Wireless so that it’ll be forward compatible with future Oticon HAs including the new More.
However, if you ever need to do firmware udpates on your Xceed, it may have to be done via a wired interface so the Noahlink Wireless may not be able to do this. But you can always get your VA audi to do any necessary firmware update for you.
Just pull down on the Genie 2 -> Help -> Help on Genie 2 and it’ll take you to an online web page that should give you explanations for all the options in Genie 2. Of course, a certain degree of knowledge about audiology is assumed by Oticon for the reader.