Hearing aids for music listening

The Oticon bass dome should have either 1 or 2 small vents, so you shouldn’t get the total occlusion sensation from it. I have the bass dome with 1 small vent and I only get the occlusion sensation when my vent gets plugged up with ear wax. A little toothpick to clear out the vent opens it up again.

The bass domes are flexible so if you have one that keeps slipping out then maybe you should move up a size on that ear. But before you do that, if you didn’t get the retention wire that keeps your dome in place from your audi (by snuggling the wire at the bottom of your inner ear well), then ask for the retention wire and try it on first. Sometimes it’s good enough to keep the dome in place.

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Hello
I use Oticon More 1 and one of my programs is dedicated to listening to music or movies in my home theater. ALL the special features are disabled for that purpose. Only the feedback control is set to low. But when I listen at high volume somehow intermittently my hearing aid step the volume down for a second of two. As if there was some kind of limiter or protection engaging. What can it be? This is really annoying.

This is what is happening, it’s kicking in when you don’t want it, have it turned off completely.

Check and make sure your Transient Noise Management is set to OFF. It should be OFF in the built-in Music program but just double check in case it was turned on for some reason.

It’s possible that the feedback prevention technology detects the onset of feedback and tries to insert STM (Spectro Temporal Modulation) signals to break up the feedback energy loop right from the onset. At times, STMs can be audible, but maybe in your case, it may manifest itself as a momentary volume step down. You can try to turn off the feedback altogether to see if this problem goes away. You probably need a low amount of feedback or otherwise you would not have set it to Low. But disable feedback completely at least just to verify whether it’s the culprit or not. If yes, then at least you know, and it may be a compromise you have to decide between having some feedback or not having intermittent volume disruption.

After all, you said you’ve turned off everything but the feedback control. So might as well turn that off as well to see what gives.

I thought it was the MPO levels. Ok I will try disabling the feedback control and see. Thanks

That’s when it’s “clipping” you’ll notice the difference between the two in most cases.

There are 3 different musical types, recording, live, and instrumental, so one needs to explore these with your audiologist to try and set them up just the way you like it sound.

Disabling the feedback control helps reduce the problem drastically but not entirely. It still happens while listening to music. And I cannot see a pattern. It’s just random. Everything is disabled so the only thing I can think of is the gain control. How does the MPO act? Can it lower the volume by a whole step when clipping?

The MPO (Max Power Output) is the max output level your hearing aids can deliver based on the size of your receivers. If the input is loud enough to cause the receiver to exceed its MPO level, the HA will go into compression limiting to avoid saturation on the receiver from being overdriven beyond its MPO level. Maybe the momentary pause in your high volume peaks is the compression limiting that you’re experiencing for a second or two, where it seems like the volume is automatically stepped down momentarily. The going in and out of compression limiting to handle the peak is probably slower than your ears’ response so it becomes a discernable difference to you.

You don’t post your audiogram and it’s not obvious what size receiver you’re using so it’s hard to say if you’re using a big enough receiver or if you’re at the edge of what the receivers can handle. If it’s easy enough to do, try to upgrade to a larger receiver that can deliver more output to see if this helps.

If you think the Music mode already should prevent the HA from doing any compression at all, it’s possible that it’s not doing normal compression at the normal level (for the wide dynamic range compression to match your hearing loss range), but it may still do MPO type compression to prevent saturation. If it doesn’t do MPO compression, then what you’re hearing is probably the clipping/saturation, possibly accompanied by a mechanical buzzing due to over saturation, all blended together to maybe sound different than normal and perceived as a momentary lapse in volume loudness.

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Here you go. Maybe with all the info available you can better understand the problem I describe and if I should ask to upgrade my receiver from the 85 to the 100.




Thanks for sharing your audiogram. I think the 85 dB receivers are appropriate for you overall, assuming you’re wearing at least bass domes and not open domes. But even then, it is at near the edge of the 85 dB performance at the 3 to 4 KHz range. I’m guessing that that’d be where you’re hitting the saturation point and run into compression limiting once in a while when exposed to higher volume.

If the 100 dB receivers don’t require custom molds (I assume that you’re not wearing custom molds with your 85 dB receivers anyway), then it wouldn’t hurt to try the 100 dB receivers to see if it solves the issue for you.


Why would I wear bass domes? I hear quite well in the low range therefore I need them as transparent as possible, open domes is what I wear. Not?

You certainly can wear open domes for less occlusion, at the expense of not be able to get sufficient amplification for your hearing loss at 3-4 KHz. If you look at the 85 dB receiver fitting range in my last post, open domes can only fit up to 65-70 dB loss while bass domes (with double vent for the More) can fit up to 85 dB loss at 3-4 KHz.

Another thing that occurs to me is that with open dome, if there’s some kind of compression limiting going on due to over saturation at high volume, the delayed response in the compression limiting can possibly cause the (late) sound coming from the hearing aids to become out of phase with the natural sound coming through the open dome at those frequencies, triggering some sort of phase cancellation, resulting in nullified or reduced volume perception. This is all an educated guess, of course. Nothing can be proven. But there’s a lot of trade-offs between wearing open domes and bass domes and this may be one of those things.

But this discussion brings up another point, and another thing you can try. Before trying out 100 dB receivers yet, maybe try to switch from open to bass domes with double vent first to see if this would help with your issue. I wear bass domes with single vent and I find it to be a very good compromise that would give me better high frequencies amplification and still acceptable openness and I really don’t feel a noticeable occlusion except for when chewing maybe.

One other advantage of the bass dome vs open dome is that if you find speech in noise a challenge, the neural noise reduction with the bass dome would be more effective than the neural noise reduction with open domes, because no matter how much noise reduction you can apply through the hearing aids to clarify the speech, the noise bled through the open domes tends to render the clarified speech muddle again anyway.

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I got me some sample bass domes today. I will try them. I discussed the subject with my audio while picking them up. She is certain I don’t need the 100 (maybe a hassle to exchange now?). And told me that the culprit is in the MPO values (what I thought on my own at first). She said to experiment with the MPO but couldn’t spare me more time. I have the feeling I toyed too much with the gains. Can you have a look at my screenshots and tell me what you think? Yesterday I watched a movie, using the music mode. I had to set the volume to -1 using the phone app because it was uncomfortable , and yet the limiting phenomenon occurred at least twice.

Volusiano,

Thanks for your response.
I have a new audiologist.
I fired my old one. I haven’t heard cymbals in years!

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When looking at your screenshot on the gain, I’m a little surprised to see that you have A LOT of analyzed feedback margin (the shaded red and blue area above the gain curves). But then I remember that you wear open domes, which explains why you have very little gain headroom left due to the feedback margin.

As long as you still have room in the MPO to go up more at the frequencies you want, then yeah, you can adjust the MPO up some more to see if this removes the limiting phenomenon. If it’s compression limiting, then raising the MPO can probably delay it from occurring too soon. If it’s a physical saturation of the receiver, then raising the MPO probably can’t fix that. Only going to the next size receiver can.

The 85 dB receiver is adequate for you overall like I said. But for wearing open domes, you do have a couple of spots in your audiogram that are outside of the open dome range as can be seen in the data sheets. I think the bass domes would work out well to extend this to cover those 2 spots. I’d try the bass dome first before resorting to upsizing the receiver. Just remember to change your Selection -> Acoustics fitting to the bass dome from the open dome to have Genie 2 re-prescribe to the new fitting.

Your audi may need to rerun REM again after you change your fitting like that though. That’d be a question for her. I notice that your simulated gain curves are higher than your target gain curves. I assume that this is due to the REM adjustments.

I am copying here a comment I made on the Phonac Lyric. I haven’t come across anyone who had tried something similar. But it sure has worked for me.

I’ve been using Lyric for around 6 mos. Big “pro” is no longer having to worry about ripping my hearing aid apart when taking off a face mask. In general, for speech, it works well. BUT My problem was music. I love music. But I found that the low frequencies/bass that gives music its punch and thunder is blocked by the hearing aid. As an experiment, I went without the lyric in one ear and found that I could now hear “well enough” out the the lyric ear and could experience the wonder full fullness of the bass/lower sounds out of the “empty” ear. The difference is like going from listening to music from an cheap radio vs hearing it via a good stereo sound system. I was so taken with the difference that I have opted to keep only one lyric in one ear and leave the other ear “free”. The difference is liking music vs loving music. I believe the lyric does faithfully reproduce the music that it allows to pass through–it just drops the low frequencies I’m looking for.

Perhaps when face masking goes away (2022?), I’ll look into changing to a type of hearing aid I’ve heard about which leaves the ear passage way open so as to not block low frequency to the eardrum.

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Hello cecramer. Absolutely resonate with what you say. Yes, I love music and particularly organ, down to 16Hz! No hearing aid can manage that - in fact you’re lucky to get down to 100 Hz and mostly our ears get tested only down to 250. That’s about three bass octaves ignored, not to mention a chunk of male tones.

One common solution is to request vents that let the lows through to your natural hearing, though this can lead to whistles when the gain is raised for quiet conversation. Another is to partially dislodge earmould or in-ear transducer, if the design allows. Many musicians resort to that.

How well the mixed approach works will depend on how much delay there is in the hearing aid processing - in this respect your one-eared method might be subjectively preferable.
In my day work, which is recording, I monitor with high-quality open backed headphones: one side aided to keep the high frequencies up, and the other left natural so I can properly assess musical and vocal timbre.
Above all, we do need to remind our audiologists of how important music is, whether that’s for work or a cheerful state of mind!

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Agree. There are many adjustments your Audi can make to improve the quality of sound from your aids for speech and music to improve your overall cheer.

However, when true accuracy is required headphones are also required.

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The difficulty is being able to communicate with you Audi using vocabulary that you both interpret similarly. Really difficult as music appreciation is so subjective.

Agree with that. the real point I have been trying to make, over and over, is that if you are really serious about music, hearing aids still aren’t there. Maybe someday but not yet.

If you can’t work with your audiologist, then self-programming helps.

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