New hearing aids signia or Oticon

Hearing Aids
#61

I have two versions of the Signia C&G 7-IX HAs, one under the brand name Rexton Reach from Costco, and the other branded TruHearing 7 Premium through my Medicare Advantage insurance plan.

The testing and fitting from Costco on the Rexton Reach far exceeded the very limited testing and fitting done by the TruHearing provider. Not only did Costco spend five times as long performing multiple tests for me before ordering my HAs, they performed Real Ear Measurement (REM) during my fitting session, which improved my HA experience so well that I relegated my one month old TruHearing aids to backup status.

The cost of the Rexton Reach at Costco was approximately the same as the insurance deductible I paid through TruHearing, but Costco also included a portable charging case while TruHearing only provided a counter-top plug-in case. (Both HAPs did help me set up Own Voice Processing to help overcome the dreaded occlusion effect.)

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#62

I was given the Rexton BiCore Li-20 by Medical through HearUSA (same HAs that Costco sells for a lot less -$1,500 cheaper) with the portable charger. I was going through hell understanding conversations with several people, outdoors, restaurants, etc.

It is then that I started my research among several FB Groups, YouTube Videos, etc and found the Signia C&G 7-IX with Telecoil.

I decided to buy out of pocket the Signia at only $2,850.00 on line vs the $5,850.00 that HearUSA wanted.

My experience with the Signia have been FLAWLESS, I can now understand conversations among multiple people, restaurants, etc. They are indeed AWESOME!

The battery lasts me over 36hrs with heavy streaming. I usually donā€™t listen to music but when I do, I would say the music sounds nice but not as clear and great as my AirPods Pro2.

I wouldnā€™t change them for any other. Highly recommend them.

Again, programming, type of dome, and receiver wiring is key for success to any HA out there.

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#63

Can that information be pulled from the fitting software and then reused or does it vary with time, dome/mold, etc? Is it roughly repeatable from different REM runs?

Are you saying that inputting measured RECD and then letting the fitting software prescribe would be close to REM even for evolving audiograms and different aids/receivers/domes/molds? Is that because without weight change each personā€™s ear canal shape is relatively stable?

#64

Why would music not also be linked for fine tuning?

#65

Because itā€™s a completely different fitting formula than the others, can only be set to ā€œtargetā€ and fine-tuned on its own.

I mean you could link it if you want pre-REM, but the results are horrible (I know, because it was done by mistake to me once).

#66

You may or may not be able to pull it from the software. Clinicians may input it or may not. Itā€™s always saved in the REM device anyway. The benefit of putting it into the software is that, depending on how the manufacturer implements it it may get your fitting closer to target so that you donā€™t have to adjust as much. But some software pulls it quickly from your REM machine with the click of a button and in others you have to type the numbers in which might slow things down, so depending on how quick they are at adjustments they might skip putting it into the software and just keep it in the REM device, which is fine.

But yes, it is certainly repeatable if someone has some degree of skill, and it may get you closer to REM depending on the manufacturer (although it can still be off and would not compensate for a manufacturer simply diverging their targets from true independent prescriptions). It is fairly stable over time in adults although the ear canal does change over timeā€“stable enough to only run it every few years unless something changes (perforation, growth, big weight changes).

RECD doesnā€™t really compensate for acoustic coupling though. That has more to do with how much the venting in your actual ear differs from the expected venting. This can be wildly variable with domes and the only thing you can do is measure it.

Sorry, are you saying that REM shouldnā€™t be run on music programs because you had a bad experience with it once? Thatā€™s not correct. What if the consequence of someoneā€™s huge ear canals is that software targets only provide 10% of intended gain?

#67

No, Iā€™m saying if youā€™re doing REM on P1 (General) & the rest of the Philips programs you donā€™t have it linked to music at the same time, itā€™s not designed to be. You actually donā€™t even have the option to set it to target the P1 Program in the fitting software when you add a Hi-Fi Music one.

Sure, you could always then perform a separate REM on that one specifically I guess if the REM software was able to be somehow loaded with the matching targets of the proprietary Hifi Music modeā€™s internal rationale (which AFAIK isnā€™t based on either NAL or DSL).

But itā€™s an interesting point you raise, and possibly why some people really donā€™t enjoy Oticon/Bernafon/Philips Music Mode while others do (Iā€™m one of the latter).

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#68

Nah.

I donā€™t fit Costco hearing aids so donā€™t know Phillips specifically, but I fit oticon and bernafon. Proprietary targets arenā€™t as complex and magical as people on these forums think. Usually theyā€™re just boosting the lows and maybe rolling off the highs a bit and turning off features. If your clinician sucked at adjusting your hearing aids for music itā€™s not because of REM.

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#69

Have you read the Oticon whitepaper on MyMusic (which is rebadged by Philips as ā€˜Hifi Musicā€™)?

If so, you can see itā€™s not just a tweaked NAL or DSL curve but uses a different base altogether; which, as I said, is why upon adding it as a new mode the fitting software doesnā€™t let you link it to another mode that uses any other standard rationale - itā€™s a manufacturer restriction.

But - my Costco audi did accidentally link them before doing a DSL REM on General and the resultant Music mode was awful (but all the other DSL-based modes were fine). I flagged the obvious mistake, got it reset back to target, and all is well now as music sounds fantastic to me.

Soā€¦ Iā€™m actually not sure what youā€™re trying to argue about here? Iā€™m certainly not anti-REM. Iā€™ve even acknowledged that based on other comments Iā€™ve seen in these forums Oticon/etc Music mode doesnā€™t work as well for everyone as it did for me by default and probably would need further adjusting for them to get the best out of it. :person_shrugging:

#70

I certainly understand that a musician program isnā€™t set to the same parameters as other everyday programs. Iā€™m a musician. Is it possible to do and REM for a musician program, independently of the other programs? Iā€™ve had a ton of surgeries done on my ears and their architecture isā€¦strange, letā€™s say. Due to the need of getting to the mastoid bone to remove wax and cholesteotoma. My outer canals are weird as well. I wear my Signia Ax7 for music alone, although they function well otherwise. But I have a BAHA for everyday use. So the musician program on the Signia is paramount for me.

#71

Costco sells the Rexton Reach with portable charger for just under $1500 - and it is a twin of the Signia you bought for $1350 more. The Rexton BiCore that Costco sold was a twin of Signia 7AX, while Reach is a twin of Signia 7iX with many improvements.

My Costco HA tech set my Rexton Reach up extremely well for me - much better than my managed care tech did for my TruHearing 7 Premium HAs which were also a twin of Signia 7iX.

#72

Iā€™ve just re-read it. What is it that you think REM is disrupting? If you think of REM as identifying and correcting how the sound on your ear differs from what oticon is expecting based on an average.

Iā€™m arguing that you having a bad experience does not suggest that the music program should be first fit with no REM. Individual ear canal acoustics can cause the actual sound reaching the eardrum to diverge dramatically from what oticon was intending it to be.

#73

Measured RECD values can be pulled from the fitting software if they were entered. I see only predicted values. Are the measured values from the REM session saved somewhere at my audiologist from the REM device or are they gone if not captured at the time when REM is performed? Iā€™m going to try to get my past values and make sure I get them from future measurements. When in the process should I ask for this so the information is handy?

#74

@Neville Why do you keep straw-manā€™ing me? I never said it shouldnā€™t be further adjusted or REMā€™d - of course if you wanted you could - provided you can find a way to REM that unique mode on its own appropriately to its own target.

{sigh} Look - Iā€™ve provided very detailed explanations above as to why speech-based DSL REM (with the standard international speech soundtrack) is not suitable for adjusting Demantā€™s proprietary music program, as-per their own guidelines, restrictions in the fitting software, and whitepaper. If after all that you still donā€™t understand how the Demant music modeā€™s unique targets & compression schemes differ from the standard ones, and why 3rd-party REM software may not be able to easily target it given they can only be set to use DSL or NAL targets, then thereā€™s no better way I can explain it - and I certainly donā€™t feel like repeating myself all over againā€¦

FWIW I thought your ā€œcoffee-fueled saturday morning write-upā€ earlier was great, talking in detail about how you canā€™t go from NAL targets with DSL REM and vice-versa - you clearly know your stuff there. So given that, getting pushback from you on the MyMusic/Hifi-Music targets - which are neither DSL or NAL based and arenā€™t supported by any REM software that Iā€™m aware of - was a bit surprising.

But anyway, given this side-thread is of little benefit to others I guess Iā€™ll just drop out now and let it get back on track.

#75

I canā€™t comment on Signia devices sorry, as I have no experience with them. Itā€™s possible that standard targets may work in your case for REM to improve it, but I donā€™t know for sure.

In general most people on here seem to say that Widex are the gold standard for listening to music, and my own experience with Philips aids (so you could apply that for anything Demant) is pretty good also.

#76

Iā€™m not trying to straw man you. You said ā€œcan only be set to ā€œtargetā€ and fine-tuned on its ownā€. Which I did read as ā€œdonā€™t run REM on the music programā€. And then you said ā€œif youā€™re doing REM on P1 (General) & the rest of the Philips programs you donā€™t have it linked to music at the same time, itā€™s not designed to beā€ and to be fair I donā€™t do Phillips, but this is untrue of other demant products.

Say you have an Intent set up with P1 DSL and P2 MyMusic and you run REM and discover that youā€™re way under targets at some set of frequencies. It is not Oticonā€™s intention that the patient be under targets there, itā€™s just a consequence of their ear canal and coupling and this consequence will also be present in the MyMusic program because itā€™s a physical acoustic issue, not anything to do with Oticonā€™s special sauce. When you increase the gain at those frequencies to overcome the problem and P1 and P2(MyMusic) are linked, it increases the gain in the MyMusic program in the problem areas but in no way sets the MyMusic program to DSL targets. And indeed if you had NOT done this or if you set P2 back to first-fit, the MyMusic program would not be doing what Oticon wanted it to do. On the other hand, if you start wrangling the compression in P1 because Oticonā€™s implementation of DSL is just inacurrate, then you will be wrangling the compression in P2 which may not be ideal. So do clinicians need to understand what the hearing aids are doing and be sensitive to how what they are doing impacts things in different ways? Sure. REM does not always mean running lines through dots. But this seems like a minimum standard for a competant clinician, as does having an understanding of how to build a music program, although Iā€™ve been disappointed in the past.

Just to be clear, because it is sometimes hard to know how the ways in which people start to get riled up on the internet, I can disagree with someone without disliking them or thinking less of them. But I do know my stuff and Iā€™m not a cruel person. So if you try not to read my responses as me trying to willfully straw man you I will try not to read yours as condescending.

If they were measured they were probably saved somewhere and I suppose you could ask for them, but donā€™t put them into the software on top of the REM adjustment which has already been made with them taken into account.

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#77

@Neville ā†’ I wonder if you can explain a little bit more about the REM process using third party REM equipment outside of the Oticon Genie 2 REM Autofit feature. But I wonā€™t pretend like I understand how the Genie 2 REM Autofit feature work either. I can only assume that if the HCP uses a set of REM equipment that is compatible with Genie 2, then you actually use Genie 2 (instead of a third party REM software) in conjunction with the compatible REM hardware to measure the actual gains against the targeted gains (as calculated by Genie 2), including for VAC+ because Genie 2 has access to this proprietary rationale. Then Genie 2 would make the necessary REM adjustments to match the target gains automatically, without the clinician needing to do anything themselves. In this scenario, I can understand how Genie 2 would automatically link this REM autofit adjustment to all the 4 programs available (if theyā€™ve been selected for use).

But the question is how does the REM process work for third parties equipment that is not compatible with Genie 2, and Genie 2 Autofit is not used to automatically adjust the actual gain to target gains. So I assume that you first set up the aids for at least the P1 program in Genie 2, and letā€™s say for MyMusic in P2 as well. Then you independently input the patientā€™s audiogram into the REM setup and run the test and the test mics paint a picture of the actual measured gains. The HCP then uses the third party REM equipment (including the software for this that is not Genie 2 itself) to raise the gains to match the target gain curves.

What is not clear to me after this is how do these gain value increases get programmed back into Genie 2 afterward, if Genie 2 werenā€™t connected to the third party REM equipment to begin with? Is that a manual process? Like, would the HCP would manually read off the number of dB increases necessary for the each of the frequency channel to match target from the REM software, then manually add the same dB value increase accordingly inside of the Genie 2 Fine Tuning section? Or is there a tie in to Genie 2 and the third party REM software somewhere to automate this update?

This goes back to the ā€œlinkā€ discussion that you mentioned in the bold part above? How does this ā€œlinkā€ occur between P1 default and P2 MyMusic that P2 MyMusic would also have its gain values REM adjusted automatically as well accordingly?

This has always been a mystery to me, how does the third party REM software carry its gain value adjustments back into the mfgā€™s own programming software? And if there is a ā€œlinkā€ between the various programs for that hearing aid, that is the process for ā€œlinkingā€, and how would one know whether the software has such a link process or not.

#78

I am glad that youā€™re having a great experience with Signia. :+1:

AFAIK, Signia Pure Charge&Go IX and Rexton Reach are identical. So, the difference in your experience between these 2 hearing aids has to be explained by something other than the brand news. I assume that the difference is the result of how,they were set up.

#79

I think youā€™re imagining a more interestingly complex situation than actually exists. Youā€™re measuring with the REM device, but adjusting inside of Genie. So you measure, itā€™s off, you adjust the software manually and measure again and so on until itā€™s correct. All the actual programming happens inside of Genie. If you link the programs while you do it, youā€™re simply applying all the gain changes you make to P1 to P2. This doesnā€™t mean P2 will match the same targets as P1 since they were different to begin with.

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#80

Ah, indeed I was imagining it way too much more than it really is like you said. Your explanation makes a lot of sense. Thanks!