Musicians and hearing aids

[tenkan]

@stuartr

My open-style hearing aids definitely won’t do this.

This is because they are not set up to do that, your audiologist has set them up for speech recognition and not music (loud, outdoor concert, etc.)

@stuartr

the audiologist felt that open rather than closed hearing aids would be a better solution for me

Again this is because the audiologist has set them for speech at your level of loss.
Going the DIY path will allow you to see for yourself what can be achieved within the software.

@stuartr

hearing aids would adequately attenuate sound from a loud live band situation

Yes it can be done, with MPO and noise reduction settings, just about anything is possible.

@stuartr

DIY programming to address issues with music, would sufficiently address the issues I described?

Music is one of the hardest to set up for the individual, but there are a few forum members who have done this for themselves with good results, again just use the search button to find them.
I don’t have any issues with my own music program, find it quite nice and clean sound.

@stuartr

If so, I’m surprised and curious why my audiologist recommended against them…

Ha, well if everyone believed everything they said there wouldn’t be a use for a DIY forum like here ; )
But seriously like any good audiologist (or doctor) they can only offer so much, they simply can’t hear what you do, so only you know what you can hear and good you think it is for any given situation, the only way to be sure is doing DIY.

[tenkan]

Also can you post your audiogram and the exact model of HAs you are using, this way myself and other forum members could offer more information/advice.

[Nocito]

Depend on hearing loss what type plug and aid is the best for that person.

[Nocito]

“Again this is because the audiologist has set them for speech at your level of loss.”

And she has to set for speech through mic, not to receive music through bluetooth at home in armchair without environmental sub sounds.

[stuartr]

I think I may have not used the correct terminology when I said “open-style” hearing aids, as some comments don’t make sense to me. I have Unitron Moxi Fit - there is a small speaker that goes in each ear but I said “open” because it does not fill the entrance to the ear. Therefore any loud noise sounds painfully loud just as it would without hearing aids. What I’m looking for are hearing aids that attenuate the volume when I play with a loud band, yet let me hear the music with the frequencies adjusted to compensate for my loss in high frequencies. The within-ear monitors my friends use are custom-fitted to fill their ear canals and go fairly deeply into their ears; they cut out all sound from the outside. (In fact, they were so completely cut off from audience sounds that they added a microphone and fed that into the mix that was sent to their ears). So, in order to reduce the volume from very loud music onstage, I obviously need something that will fill the ear canal - thus my question. I know a different style of hearing aid fills the ear canal, but I don’t know if it is custom fitted and goes deep enough to really block out loud noises - do they? Thanks!

[stuartr]

@tenkan

audiogram

p.s. - not sure my audiologist ever gave me the audiogram, but I will look for it - might take me a couple of days to find it.

[tenkan]

@stuartr

I think I may have not used the correct terminology when I said “open-style”

Its ok i understood what you meant, open fit is open domes fitted to your receivers (speaker) common for mild to moderate hearing loss, you most likely have good low frequency (bass) but tapes off in the higher frequencies
(ski slope)
edit:I see you state high frequencie loss.

@stuartr

Therefore any loud noise sounds painfully loud

Yep its gonna get painful with completely open domes, your going to have to use closed domes or even better still custom made moulds with the smallest vent you can tolerate, so as not to get the “occlusion effect”

@stuartr

I’m looking for are hearing aids that attenuate the volume when I play with a loud band, yet let me hear the music with the frequencies adjusted to compensate for my loss in high frequencies.

This is no problem for just about any hearing aid, its all in the fitting
(programming + acoustics)

@stuartr

I don’t know if it is custom fitted and goes deep enough to really block out loud noises - do they?

Yes they do, your going to need to see your audiologist, or if they are not wanting to help, find another that will.
You’ll need impressions for your moulds + REM first fit.
From there you can try your hand at DIY, everyone here will help, but you need to see a pro to begin with, before going down DIY path.

I can tell you from experience you won’t have much joy with the unitron moxi fit (even the Pro model) these are similar to phonak, unitron are not known for good music reproduction.

Signia, Widex, ReSound are good options that have given decent results for me and others.

[BobbyBoomer]

I use closed dome hearing aids, it’s the solution for me.

I have Opticon aids and the ‘connect clip’. From the clip I can adjust the gain of the hearing aids.

When performing I keep an SPL meter on stage (A weighted Slow response) and keep the loudness under 95db (typically 90). I feel responsible for the hearing health of my audience, so when we do a sound check, my partner makes sure the volume at the first row of tables is 85dba average.

A couple of down clicks on the connect clip in combination with the closed domes act to keep the volume at a comfortable level. Between songs I click the up on the clip until I hear the double-beep telling me I’m at the set level, and I can hear talking.

I used to use the Westone passive aids, and kept 15 and 25 plugs and had a similar situation as you. Between songs if an audience member said something I couldn’t get it. My duo partner always covered but I was in the dark.

Then at Etymotic I bought active musicians ear filters. This could be a solution for you. As the volume goes up, the filters compress the peaks and lower the gain. The only problem with them is they don’t work for high levels say 95 or above.They take #10 hearing aid batteries.

https://www.etymotic.com/consumer/hearing-protection/mp915.html

When I explained what I needed to my audi, she recommended closed domes. If I turn the volume on my aids down all the way, or open the battery doors a bit to turn them off, they act like ear plugs.

This works for me better than the Etymotics because between songs instead of just passive listening volume, my aids are active and it helps me understand the speakers.

Bob

[stuartr]

6 Months since my last post, I have a question and a comment:

• the question: I am trying Oticon MORE 3 minirite aids, which seem better than my old hearing aids. My audiologist suggested comparing them to Starkey Livio and Widex Evoke, which she said many musicians like. Has anyone here tried both the Oticon More and at least one of these other HAs? I’m just wondering if any musicians find the other HAs superior?
• the comment: In the 6 months since I posted, I had gotten to the point of planning a home-grown solution for the problem I described in the previous post - but I just found a new product that addresses exactly the musician need I described. Sensaphonics 3DME lets you use their binaural microphones, a line input, or the mix of these that you want; it provides a limiter and an equalizer that are controlled by the user; and, with custom-made ear moulds, it protects my ears from damaging loud sounds on stage (or even over studio headphone feed). So I have much more control that I have with any hearing aid and, interestingly, they are much less expensive than any serious HAs I’ve looked at. Of course, they don’t do all the processing to help you distinguish speech from noise, etc…, and I’m not suggesting they would replace HAs in day-to-day life - but it’s great to have this solution for musical performances. I offer the caveat that, due to pandemic, I still have not had a bunch of experiences with them in real concert situations, but I’m so glad to have found this solution, plan to report back when I’ve used them more.

[CarbonArc]

I haven’t posted in a long time, since before this forum converted from the previous owner. I found stuartr’s post (above) after searching for “3DME”. I was specifically looking for more information on: ASI 3DME ACTIVE AMBIENT IN-EAR MONITORS. Stuartr gave a good description of them in his post.

I’ve been a non-professional guitarist, usually electric, for about 55 years. Over the last 10 years I’ve developed some fairly significant high-frequency loss, causing challenges understanding speech. To
deal with that I’ve been wearing Rexton Trax 42 BTE HAs since they first became available at Costco.

The HAs are very helpful with speech, thankfully, but cause serious degradation in my ability to enjoy music; recorded or live. I have a music-optimized program for the HAs, which is an improvement, but is not satisfactory.

I’d also recently read (here) a reference to “Headphone accommodations” with Apple AirPods. What intrigued me was the ability to customize the sound based on the user’s audiogram. I’ve been waiting for that feature for years. However, I don’t use Apple’s phones or other products (although I still have an ancient IPod).

Then, today, I watched a YouTube video of a pro-guitarist raving about ASI 3DME ACTIVE AMBIENT IN-EAR MONITORS. I’ll post the link to that. Now I’m interested in learning more about the product. I’m hoping that the concept of using its built-in equalizer may allow it to have a similar function as Headphone Accommodation with AirPods.

This seems like an approach I’ve been dreaming of. I was hoping I’d find more discussion about it (or anything similar) here, but stuartr’s post is all I found. I’d be very interested to hear what others think about this idea.

Here’s the Youtube link: I’ve NEVER liked In Ear Monitors… UNTIL NOW!

[edit] I should emphasize, as stuartr did, that I wouldn’t be expecting this approach to offer the speech-processing capabilities of true HAs, but I am very interested in the possibility of hearing musical fidelity with some compensation (equalization) for my high-frequency loss. The added protection against damaging sound-levels would be a bonus.

[Musician_72]

@CarbonArc : Very interesting find. I had been looking for something like this (in ear monitor with ambient sound mics) for quite some time.
At the moment, I do it like @BobbyBoomer . I have an extra hearing aid (got it cheap at ebay and programmed it myself, a Bernafon Acriva 9) with closed domes (I started with power domes, but they have occlusion like hell, so my audi made me some custom molds where the part that sits at the bone is cut out). This way, I can adjust the volume and understand talk between songs. This is especially important as I lead rehearsals with studens.
When things get too loud, the aids start to distort a bit (the bernafon acriva aids have a special live music program with less distortion than others, but it does only get so far), also in general, hearing aids are still a lot worse for music than in-ear monitors.

Please report if you try those in-ears! A hearing aid is mostly an equalizer combined with a multi-band compressor, so using eq and compression those should sound really great for music. A good hering aid will enhance the signal to noise ratio for speech, this will, of course, be not possible with that in-ears.

[Psych1]

Somehow I missed this thread, an oldie but goodie. Lots of good advice here especially about the need for musicians to DYI, the only way to ever get the right tuning. But, there has been a lot of progress in HA technology since this thread started.

Anyone still using Trax 42 may be missing a lot. But, maybe not depending on profile. My 20 years old Phonak half shells still work for me except for Roger & Bluetooth. But I still use studio monitor headphones for music. HAs are getting better but still not there.

[stuartr]

I have been using the 3DME ever since my early posts, and just reporting back that it is working well for me. Although I’m not suggesting it as a replacement for HAs - for example, for hearing speech in a crowded noisy restaurants, I would still wear my Oticon HAs, and the streaming of phone calls to HAs is working for me well - but for music situations, especially where volume may be an issue, the 3DME has been great in my experience. I use it all the time when working with music on my laptop (e.g. recording or mixing Logic Pro), and on any gig where the volume may get loud.

[chrshea2]

I play in a 60’s band and I do some solo gigs as well. My low end hearing isn’t too bad but I have the typical ski slope affecting the mid and higher frequencies. I had some Phonak Solanas for many years and they weren’t the greatest for music. Last year I got some Philips 9030’s from Costco and they work reasonably well. They are made by the same conglomerate that produces Oticon and others (who have a good reputation for handling music). I normally turn down the volume a couple of notches when I’m playing music, otherwise I get too much high end. I recently had the music option adjusted to reduce the volume a bit and boost the bass and that improved them. I used to get some distortion from the Phonaks if the music was quite loud but I haven’t noticed that with the new ones. Overall, I’m satisfied with the result and the bottom-line price was very reasonable.

[huck]

Hi:
I am on a 'try before I buy’basis and so far I have tried the Widex 330 RIC and now I am trying the TOTL Phonak Paradise P90’s RIC and my main concern is music listening and when I say 'music listening",I don’t mean streaming from a smart phone or some other portable device,but listening to vinly(LP’s) and CD’s…the Phonaks seem to sound better for me and not because they are an extra $1K,just that they didn’t need as much adjusting to get them to sound ‘right’,well not right,just a little better than the Widex.
My audi has me set up with a Music program now,but still need some tweaking,but still not sounding ‘right’.
I asked for a ‘No DSP’ Music program,but audi said that their set-up would also alter the Speech,so she gave me some alternate set-up.close to what I asked.
Not really sure I am going about this the right way and I think my audi has more experience with Speech recognition rather than actual music listening…I have another adjustment tomorrow,so we see from there.
First couple of adjustments were to add some bass and turn down the treble,which helped a lot,also changing to the closed one vent domes also helped,now I can listen to headphones with no feed-back.
How do you go about getting a proper Music Program?Thanks,Huck

[e1405]

@huck: My expirience has been about the same. It is not an easy task to find an audi that understands what we need for music. I am in the middle of a little experiment, here is the link. My music program is much better now (though still not quite perfect yet).

[huck]

Yeah,my audi doesn’t seem to ‘speak the same language’ as me as far as music goes,but she is getting there.
I am sure she dreads the fact that she has me as a client,as I have been there 4 times for adjustments on the Widex Moment 330’s in as many days,plus my second (today)on the Phonak P90’s and I think that the musical side of HA’s is not her specialty.
For my adjustment today,I need the very upper mid-range and just where the treble starts to be brought down a bit(not sure what frequencies they are),but maybe 2-3kHz.
I for sure know the weather affects my hearing,as I have ‘good’ and ‘bad’ days normally,but when the weather is 'off ’ my hearing is affected much more.
I don’t care for the Phonak app,too much “health” items,plus there is a half second delay from the time you make an adjustment,say on the equalizer,to when you actually hear the change.
My audiogram looks nothing like the ones I see here,but will try and get it listed.
Does anyone know which HA maker that has actual numbers on their equalizer.( I found that Widex does)…Phonak has numbers,but only on their volume control,so equalizer is hard to compare from one setting to the next with no number,only a ‘bubble’.Thanks,Huck

[huck]

My audi did the adjustments I asked for,so I will listen for a few days,but I had her order me for trial,a pair of Widex Moment 440’s for next week.I don’t particularly care for the Phonak P90 phone app…they have a ‘cheap,plasticky’ charger and even the lower model Widex 330 which is $1K CAD cheaper has a much nicer charger,plus a better equalizer(440) which has numbers,nice for comparisons,but that is just my opinion.Huck

[drcrandon]

I am very interested to hear what you think of the Moment 440’s. I just got mine a few months ago. My first HA. I am an audiophile, not a musician. But as an audiophile, my goal of course is to hear the music exactly as the musician and producer intended it to be.

[huck]

I have had the 440’s for about a week and so far I like them for music.I had my AO give me three music programs,one with no DSP,one that I was using with the Widex moment 330’s I tried and the last one being with DSP.
I tried the second Music program tonight,which I have used for the trial Widex Moment 330’s,but sounds very similar to the no DSP…third program tomorrow.
I use just the one of four pre-programmed equalizer settings (I use mainly “Less Sharp” and “Less Echo”) for each Music program and sounds not too bad,so I have basically 5 possible music scenarios per Music program and I alternate between the two settings while listening,depending on the quality of the music at the time of listening.
I like the Android app for the 440’s better much better than the Phonak app,especially for music.
I have tried three models of HA’s so far and I will most likely will be going with the 440’s.
One more listening session with the new DSP program and I will know for sure. Huck