Musical pitches

I had/have a similar problem. I was playing bass in an amplified acoustic duo. My partner’s wedge monitor seemed to blare at me into my left ear with what seemed like an atonal roar. I would lean my right ear down toward my own monitor and things would clear up and I could hear the key again.

It turned out that I had an acoustic neuroma developing in my left ear. I’m not suggesting that everyone with diplacusis (hearing the same actual tone differently in each ear) has an acoustic neuroma, but you might want to visit an audiologist and have the audi conduct a word recognition test. If your word recognition score is poorer than would be predicted by your pure tone audiometry score you might want to go to an ENT and have an MRI to rule out an acoustic neuroma.

As for dealing with your problem, you could set up some kind of monitoring system that would pick up the piano sound and amplify it and then direct the amplified piano sound into your good, accurate ear. That way you would be hearing the sound louder in your good ear and your bad ear would tend to adjust.

Or you could buy a bi-CROS HA system to use only for playing piano. With a bi-CROS system, the HA on your bad ear is just a microphone that picks up the sound and re-routes the sound to the HA on your good ear. The the system then combines the signal from the microphone on the bad ear side with the signal from the HA microphone on the good ear, and then sends the combined sound into your good ear for processing to your brain

It’s an expensive solution but it might allow you to continue enjoying playing piano. Good luck.

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That’s crazy, Even for someone that doesn’t listen to or play music that has to be awful. I could see downshifting a range by an octave, but if it’s pretty much anything but that the results will drive one insane in short order.

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I’m curious what your audiogram looks like. I have notched bilateral sn loss, although peaking in different bands between ears. Similar experience. I was blessed (or cursed) with perfect pitch from birth and I’ve since lost it at only ~30 years of age due to this loss, feels like I’ve lost a vital sense and it drives me mad. I’ve contemplated suicide a lot over the last years just having experienced this loss and dealing with it. I finally decided to stop being so stubborn and giving headphones w/ EQ a shot, and now hearing aids a go again, just for the sake of enjoying music (I can manage conversations at regular volumes decently well unaided). As much as a medical marvel modern HAs are, I feel in my case very basic 1/X parametric shaping of my loss “pattern” at certain key points at a fixed SPL is the key, with “features” like compression and such that affect the spectrum in various ways not being present to cause further problems. But I don’t know if any modern HA are capable of this behaviour, and I’m sure certain people could benefit from transposition but my intuition tells me it of course depends on the nature of the loss and the bands affected. I plan on making a thread talking about my experiences and how I’ve been dealing with it.

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Well this has opened a minefield to me. I do not have access to my audiogram and I’m in the dark about anything to do with that. I have been trying a few things however. Using headphones I tried playing just using the headphone on one ear at a time. My left ear (worst ear) sounds like one of those little transister radios from 50 years ago, almost no bass, also all notes from about C5 up sound very much the same. My right ear sounds normal except the G5,G#5,A5 and the E6,F6,F#6 which are either sharp or flat, some as much as a semitone. Trying things out just now I dont seem to have a way of playing G5 or anything near it ( to my ears anyway). Basically I dont have a ‘good’ ear to work with.
I very much appreciate all the suggestions but to say I am despondent would be an understatement.

Seems very similar to my experience from the words you describe although I would consider my left ear my “good” one simply because the losses I have there are in a less significant band. If you click on my audiogram under my username you can see a little of what I am describing. If you look at the audiograms of many other people, especially those with age or chronic-exposure hearing loss, usually you will see a relatively broadband loss that’s either relatively even across the audible spectrum, or more of a gentle sloping loss with bias towards the higher frequencies, as they are most vulnerable to loss. This is because they are concentrated at the apex of the cochlea, being the most vulnerable due to being exposed to the most sound, while also simultaneously having less concentration of hair cells responsible for those frequencies. This is more or less an inevitable thing and product of life like cancer- the longer you live the less of these cells you will likely have and the worse your hearing will be, just like how if you live long enough some cells in your body will simply mutate to a point where your immune system cannot deal with it and they will proliferate in the body. I think this is the “best” situation one can be in terms of hearing loss, because it is more of a gradual loss of function that can usually be remedied quite well through simple broadband amplification, all the “mechanisms” of hearing are still there are more or less working relatively well as a unit, and there is more or less equal or at least progressive deficiency across the board, so it is more predictable to fix and yields better results. The hearing loss I have is the antithesis to this more or less- my hearing prior to the loss was extremely good, and even now I hear very high and very low frequencies completely fine. Great in fact. But important low/mid bands are completely scooped and carved out randomly, which makes mine an atypical case.

When I first found out about my hearing loss, it was tough. Through a battery of tests, MRIs etc I never got closure on how it happened and they found “nothing wrong”, and I have no idea whether is was really due to some acute noise exposure, some medications I was on, a vascular or immune problem or something of that nature. Seeing as how I’m young and can still manage conversations at regular volume (around 50-60 dB) with minor issue, but as a great music lover having it so impacted I figured “hey I will just use my audiogram as a template for applying parametric eq to my music in each ear so I can hear what I am actually missing”, but soon realised it is much more complicated than that. Luckily (or not), I have a very broad scientific knowledge and love for music and music reproduction, and while I am not an audiologist or ENT, I’m also a graduate of medicine and have been involved with medical research, I have a strong background in biochemistry and engineering, so I quickly found out a lot about my loss through not only my experience of dealing with this loss/running informal experiments on my function, but also through reading numerous books and medical papers on the subject. What I was never told by my ENT or my audiologist is that, based on the massive sudden drop of notches I have in each ear, these are actually likely very “dead” cochlear regions where essentially, the cochlear function in terms of the signal transduction process is essentially wiped out due to one or more mechanisms, which I won’t describe for the sake of making the post too long.

One thing that is misleading or not intuitive is that- if my audiogram is showing my thresholds are ~50 dB down at 500hz, I’m still hearing something, right? So why can’t that be amplified or corrected like I’ve seen done successfully in elderly populations? Well it seems most people, and I think even many hearing professionals and doctors in the field don’t understand (at least conceptually) is that, in a case where thresholds like this are past a certain point (especially if the rest of the hearing is relatively OK and there are sudden or random drops), the “threshold” I am hearing at 500hz is not a 500hz tone at all, but rather is more accurately a “false positive” noisy tone. The noise I am hearing at -50dB is NOT what any respectable musician would consider a pure continuous tone but it is a result of other non-dead regions of the cochlea (and maybe even the other ear) being stimulated at low levels giving the impression there is something being heard. A simple audiogram obviously does not reflect this, and no audiologist or hearing care professional has ever asked me if the pure or modulating tones I am hearing in an audiogram seem odd, different, ringing, sharp/flat etc. Speech in noise/word intelligibility tests can give clues, but it can easily be missed or overlooked. So for example in my case, my loss that is shown to be peaking at around 500hz should technically be virtually down to the bottom of the audiogram, that is something that can never be amplified for me (and in fact, amplifying it will just cause more problems and more distortion as it will have psychoacoustic effects due to stimulating other areas of “good” hearing). If I play tones or notes in one ear at regular volumes near the regions where the loss is the most, it just sounds massively wrong and distorted, multiple cents or semitones off, since I am relying on my acuity and brain to sort through the harmonics that I can actually still hear. And since it is non-linear as you described, there’s no real predictable signal processing I’ve tried when running subjective experiments on myself that can compensate gracefully for the issue, since it is very dynamic and can change completely even shifting down a few hz.

I’m entertaining the idea of octave transposition, although, I don’t know how well that would actually work in practice for true fidelity of music in my case specifically, which is/was my MAIN goal for hearing aids, and 90% of the reason I am considering to give them a try again. Many hearing aid algorithms mostly focus on reasonably correcting losses that are correctable, and on top of that providing some other “enhancements” (perhaps in the harmonic octave of your hearing loss or key bands for speech intelligibility, namely in higher frequencies where consonant formant frequencies are critical) that will definitely help with things like speech intelligibility but in my opinion disfavourably imbalance the tonal balance of music. For example with my loss at ~400-1200hz in my right ear, an octave up would be 800-2400hz. You can immediately see the problem, since the loss falls in multiple octaves, pushing everything up would still not account for my unfixable/less fixable issues within 800-1200hz region, but may help some things like speech or localisation/awareness. Similarly pushing everything down to 200-600 would also have some overlap. Maybe a compromise in my case could be had pushing 400-800hz down to 200-400hz and then pushing 800-1200 up to 1600-2400 which would essentially be the “best” of both words- but from my understanding hearing aids don’t necessarily have the functionality to do this arbitrarily for any frequencies and it’s typically only really use to transpose much higher frequencies to lower ones in the case of that typical sloping loss you usually see for the sake of speech intelligibility (which is not a massive problem for me). You also have to factor in, moving stimulus from one frequency region to another “good” one through transposition is also going to hurt tonality and one’s intelligibility at regions where your hearing is actually “good”, since all of this transposition is going to mask fundamentals that occur in those bands, so it is a trade off. I can see this trade off being reasonable if someone has massive problems with conversation and communication- but since I don’t have this issue yet, why would I want to needlessly use these “features” when they are not conductive to my goal of maximising fidelity? I think there are some other solutions to this, like crossfeed or cross hearing aids where they transform and play the band in the opposite ear- but I am conveniently cursed with a loss in my “good” opposite ear that have a harmonic overlap with the losses in my bad ear! Argh! If I lower the frequencies in my better left ear, it falls into critical region of 400-1200 which is already working on overdrive to compensate for the deficiencies in my right! I have no idea what to do, and pray for a cure or solution.

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This is very interesting and if you do find an answer then I am sure there are others here who would benefit.

One other effect I notice is that the level needed to kick a less sensitive region of my cochlear into working, is higher than listening to the tones at a higher level would suggest. Or to put it another way, I have a non-linear response to pure tones. The just-audible to loud ratio in dB is different than for areas where I have less loss.

So in practical terms, my initial fit is always too loud at the frequencies that I can still hear above 1 kHz. That means that I always need the midrange turning down a bit (several dB). It’s particularly true in my left ear, which besides the cochlear damage (caused by calcification as a result of otosclerosis), had for many years a 40dB conductive loss which meant that my brain wasn’t getting to play with much in the way of signals from my left cochlear. In the last year I had this corrected by stapedectomy and there is a real sense that my brain is having to learn again to process stuff from my left cochlear, with some success I believe.

Anyway listening to music, I adjust the fitting so that the midrange and what lower treble I can hear sounds about the same level as it does in my right ear. My audiologist is rather bemused by this, but less so now that I do all my tweaking myself at home instead of going in and asking her for “take another 2dB off at 2kHz in my left ear please!”

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What hearing aids are you presently using? Perhaps time to investigate what’s out there for musicians.

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Hi, currently Phonak Marvel.
I will have to investigate, not sure where to start.
I am still reeling from this happening having been ok one day and then waking up the next in disarray.
I have been tentatively listening to various music this week and the absolute worst for my hearing now is solo piano music. I previously listened to Keith Jarrett all the time , now it’s nigh on impossible.

I’m sorry. That sounds like a difficult road of anxiety and grief.

I wouldn’t actually guess that? You could ask your audiologist to run a TENS test to check, although the gross nature of the test wouldn’t necessarily rule out more isolated dead regions. Usually when we are referring to dead regions we are talking about large regions where the inner hair cells are damaged beyond function, and loss is typically more severe than what’s on your audiogram. I think it would be interesting to test your frequency acuity across frequencies, but while this is something done regularly in research settings it is not done clinically. Certainly if you are hearing noise instead of tones, volunteer that information to your clinician. It might be useful information for them to have, although research has not progressed enough that there is a standard approach to that. There is some minor research suggesting that fitting to prescriptive targets when cochlear dead regions are present is not detrimental (to speech perception), although also not necessarily beneficial the way it would be in someone with similar loss and no dead regions. Additionally, we often talk about damage to inner and outter hair cells, but there are a pile of other supporting cells that can be damaged, too. People with much more severe hearing losses than yours regularly still perceive tones as tones, so you perceiving tones as noise is definitely suggestive of more damage.

This should not be the case. You don’t have your bone line marked on your audiogram, but judging just by the air conduction thresholds you don’t have asymmetries that would be expected to overcome inter-aural attenuation.

How long have you had the hearing loss? One of the things that is difficult is that the brain can adapt to impoverised input and re-adjust perception to be more “normal”, but we don’t know to what degree and how long it will take. So there’s a sense that if you amplify everything to target, even if it sounds like crap the brain may re-adjust given some time. The benefit of putting up with the crap sound in the first place is that once the brain adapts you have more overall audibility. BUT, we don’t know how long to try that before giving up and it can be hard to put up with crap sound when you have no idea how long you will have to do so. It’s easier to counsel people with more common sloping losses on this because even though there is no objective answer about “how long” and “to what degree”, clinicians have seen that adaptation happen often enough over time in that population to generalize their experience. Your type of sudden reverse slope is rarer and therefore harder to make a generalization about. I have had two patients with sudden reverse-slope loss kind of like your right ear who were able to accept full gain right away and just powered through with the crap sound and DID adapt over ~6-8 months after which they reported that things sounded pretty normal. Their word recognition also increased. However, I have also had a few others who have not been able to do this–at least one who TRIED without luck, but others who simply couldn’t tolerate the sound quality enough to live with it day-to-day. I have recently had one more who couldn’t tolerate much low frequency gain immediately after the hearing loss occurred, but three years later was able to do so and we have seen improvements in sound perception and general hearing function. I don’t know to what extent there may have been some cochlear recovery after the sudden loss or resolution of loundess tolerance issues (which seem to be common after a sudden or traumatic loss), and to what degree the patient’s evolving understanding of hearing loss made him more willing to try it. There’s some minor research evidence that early amplification after a sudden loss leads to increased word recognition later on.

I would also observe that it’s harder to get musicans and engineers to put up with crappy sound to see if we can get that recovery. Musicians because they are so tuned-in to how things should sound, and engineers because they tend to focus on the function of the device, or even the function of the ear, and overlook the flexibility of the brain.

So, I’m sorry to perhaps complicate things even further for you, but especially if your loss is new it might be worth thinking about things from a perspective of neural plasticity. Consider, for example, all the people on these forums who have gotten cochlear implants; that is a device which provides dramatically impoverished input relative to a normally functioning cochlea, and yet individuals with good outcomes often report that their perception is relatively normal. It is also very common for cochlear implant users to engage in some quite focussed auditory training to help support that return to normal perception. Perhaps a perspective of neural plasticity will also provide you with a bit more hope–if this hearing loss is new, your current experience may not be your future experience, even if change is slower than you might prefer.

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I’m only being slightly comedic by suggesting Keith Tippet instead of Keith Jarrett. I enjoy avant garde and musique concrete more than I used to :wink: Of course if it’s the same instruments that’s not going to improve. Some of the electronic compositions can be quite enjoyable even though I’m probably hearing a totally different piece than the composer created.

Evokes memories of King Crimson, who along with Procol Harum, and Genesis (all live) in Chicago circa 1974), may have been the root cause of my hearing loss!

Keith & Julie were amazing together, as well.

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Lucky guy! Well except for the long term outcome. :slight_smile: I learned of Tippet and many other artists through their work with KC, its members and offshoots. I was a few years late to the genre. Missed almost all the fun.

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Perhaps it’s time for a visit to your audi. Or, think of another brand. Widex has been known to be preferred by musicians.

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Hello. Just signed up here.
A Google search brought me here as I have exactly the same problem.
I am a hobby pianist only, not a musician. I had my piano professionally re-tuned earlier this year, but the problem remains: notes above around F5 (~700Hz) sound wildly off-key, sharp by more than a semitone in some cases.
It’s not just my piano. Recorded music I listen to also shows the same effect. It’s driving me nuts!
I have a pair of Widex MRR4D’s with three different programmes set by the audiologist but none of the settings solve the problem.
Yes I’m late coming to this thread and I haven’t read all the posts yet, but I’ll try to do so. In the meantime, any advice? Should I go back to the audiologist?

Same for me f#5 to a#5 all sharp g# & a practically a semitone sharp. I don’t think there is a solution, some music I just can’t listen to if there are sustained melody notes on those notes.

Interesting- I have found Keith’s music to be very irritating. My husband is a fan. It’s likely I may have hearing loss all along and just didn’t realize it until my mid forties.

Assuming frequency shifting is turned off in your hearing aids, I wonder if “recruitment” is responsible? My simplistic understanding is as parts of the brain lose signal from the cochlea they recruit connections to nearby parts of the cochlea. I’ve noticed some pitch ambiguity with soft sounds, perhaps you need aids adjusted for increasing hearing loss? Recruitment is normally discussed as a problem leading to intolerance of loud sounds though (at a certain volume now the brain is getting too many inputs or something?)

I love his piano playing, but hate his vocalizing!

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Thanks for the comments: it’s a relief to learn I’m not unique!

A bit of tech. stuff from the music point of view, if you’ll bear with me.

Those familiar with the acoustic piano’s working will know that it is not tuned to exact equal temperament right across the range: instead it is ‘stretched’ with the highest notes being tuned a bit sharp and the lowest a bit flat. This stretching is characterised in a function known as the Railsback curve, which is unique to each piano, and all tuners work to that principle when tuning the piano. The stretch can amount to as much as 30 cents (1/3 of a semitone) but never a whole semitone.

The reason for this stretch is to compensate for the fact that, because of the strings’ stiffness, a note played on a piano does not exhibit true harmonics. The same is true of any plucked stringed instrument such as a guitar or a violin played pizzicato (but not when bowed). A piano sounds ‘in tune’ to a normal listener when it is tuned with this stretch.

But clearly I am not a ‘normal’ listener. I am hearing high notes sharp when they are actually in tune.

If there exists a hearing aid which can ‘unstretch’ the high notes - lower the pitch - as presented to me - that might be a solution. Indeed my current hearing aids might support that, but I won’t know till I ask the audiologist.

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Indeed, reading this thread having Perfect Pitch may be a curse! That said people with PP can listen to piano without going bunker but freak out if another instrument is a cent out of tune. Never understood that.

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