Guitar sounds out of key

[david.hendon]

@PeterH

I was under the impression, that pitch shifting was only used in the Phonak “Sound Recover” part of the software.

It is, but in the feedback cancelling system, you can get all manner of artifacts that can make music sound wrong. This is why some (all maybe) of the fitting softwares have music settings for feedback control.

In Resound, which is the system I know best, the music feedback setting doesn’t try to cancel steady tones as they are probably part of the music! However Widex, which I last tried about 6 years ago, sounds dreadful on music imho. It’s a long time since I played with a Phonak aid so can’t comment on that.

[Volusiano]

@PeterH

I was under the impression, that pitch shifting was only used in the Phonak “Sound Recover” part of the software.

Technically speaking, Sound Recover 2 does frequency compression, not shifting. Meaning that it compresses a wider “band” of frequencies toward the lower end into a narrower band of frequencies. Meanwhile, frequency shifting is taking the spectrum as is and simply shift it (either up or down) by a tiny amount (usually 10 Hz).

Oticon doesn’t use frequency compression for frequency lowering. It uses frequency transposition and composition to lower the higher band of frequencies. It does this by chopping up the band of high frequencies into 3 equal sections, then transpose each of the sections into a band at lower frequencies, stacking them one on top of another (hence the “composition” part).

The traditional feedback management strategy usually involves 3 tactics:

1. Frequency shifting.
2. Phase change.
3. Gain reduction, which can cause the gain margin to decrease. The margin here means the headroom you have to increase your volume louder up to a certain point. The loss of the margin means that you may not be able to increase your gain as much as before.

But Oticon developed a new way to manage feedback, which is more preventive than reactive like above. The new way monitors the spectral energy of the signal looking for a potential build up of energy that can develop into a feedback situation. If it finds it, it inserts short and repetitive “breaks” (artificial signals) into this spectral band to break up the energy build-up, thereby staving off the feedback from happening.

With this new Oticon feedback, the traditional 3-tactic feedback management approach usually can be replaced by this new approach, thereby removing the need for the 3 tactics that pose definite disadvantages.

[Tony3]

How does relate to my problem? And what can audiologist do to try and correct this? Could the problem be my hearing and damage to hair cells?

[dacuttler]

Again, make sure you bring your guitar with you, and hope your audiologist will devote enough time to develop a good dedicated music program that suits your needs.

Another consideration is if your audi sells and services many different brands, he/she may not be fully knowledgeable regarding some of the seldom used features & settings of all the different programming applications. It might be worth calling him, and asking right up front if he has ever successfully worked with musicians in the past, and will he be willing to devote enough time with you to get your aids dialed in to your satisfaction.

[Volusiano]

@dacuttler

Again, make sure you bring your guitar with you,

Best and most practical advice here!

[Herbhornist]

Many replies have addressed the issue of programming the aids to make music sound better. However, the sounding out of key may be a problem of the ears themselves, particularly if it’s specific notes that sound out of tune. In my case 256 Hz C sounds a semi tone flat. I suspect that those hair cells are damaged, and nearby cells for B have been recruited, thus making that note sound flat. Notes lower than 256 Hz that have harmonics at 256 Hz would also be affected.

Your loss is not too great. You an play something over your hi-fi or good earphones unaided to see if it’s you or the aids.

Aside: It’s interesting that one uses the word, “see” in that sense. A blind friend of mine of mine uses “see” in that sense.

[ziploc]

@david.hendon

I speak of what I know, because one of my ears detects musical sounds as about a semitone low compared to the other ear. But if I listen with both ears, then my brain works it out and I don’t notice it.

I have experienced this myself. I have an acoustic neuroma. Both before and after Gamma Knife treatment I sometimes heard a sustained note as a semitone lower in my affected ear. I noticed that this tended to occur when my usually low-volume acoustic duo gig had gotten loud the night before.

It’s easy to check whether this is happening to you. Take out your HAs and sing a sustained note and block one ear and then the other. See if the same note sounds lower in one ear.

I’ll bet that’s not your issue, though. It sounds like this problem only started when you started wearing HAs. So just some simple adjustments should fix the problem.

If you live near Toronto I would recommend a visit to one of Marshall Chasin’s clinics. He appears to be the “go-to” audi for musicians, at least in North America. .

[user1120]

I am a classical guitarist with Philips mini-rite. I find severe clipping distortion, also called intermodulation distortion that makes it should like the strings are slapping the fingerboard. Piano causes the same distortion, and pianos have no fingerboard. Bowed strings do not have this issue. Reducing the gain or simply removing the hearing aid eliminates the distortion. Have you tried an analog hearing device like the Etymotic Bean? I liked mine but they were so inconvenient to wear all day.

[Tony3]

I have an appointment with Marshall Chasin on Thursday. Hopefully he will be able to provide some help and improve the music program so the guitar doesn’t sound of key

[ziploc]

You’re a lucky guy! PLEASE post a full description of your experience and your results.

[DaveL]

@dacuttler

Excellent post. Thank you.

[mikesvensson90]

I have the same problem. One possible explanation given to me is a hearing disorder called diplacusis. In stead of trying to explain I suggest looking it up in e.g. Wikipedia or Google.

[gordonharris2]

My left ear suddenly developed a serious hearing loss 2 years ago, while my right ear has relatively normal hearing loss for my age. When it happened, music no longer sounded good. I bought a pair of Jabra 200 Select, but the quality of music is tinny whether streaming or listening aloud. Then a couple of months ago I purchased a pair of Oticon Real 1 hearing aids, and they are a vast improvement, especially when using the music setting. However, I don’t think I have experienced the frequency shifting that you are referring to, probably because I still have one relatively good ear.

[DaveL]

@gordonharris2

My friend had a cochlear implant. he lost his hearing overnight. He told me that his loss could have been prevented with a vitamin supplement.
His caused dizziness. He was extraordinarily dizzy. He had trouble walking.

Your comment about serious hearing loss made me wonder if there was a similar cause.

Mine…In grade 2 my music teacher declared me tone deaf. I carried that label all my life. I’m trying to learn how to play my ukulele. I’m not having luck.

Dave

DaveL

[steve11]

It took my brain about 9 months to hear pitch and tone again, after I began using a HA in my left ear. I suffered similar symptoms to you, but for me the issue was in relearning how to hear again. My hearing rehab was not easy, was not much fun, but I persisted - and only two months ago I picked up my acoustic guitar and suddenly not only could hear the bottom two strings, but pitch and tone were clear and normal. I tried the piano - I hadn’t touched it since - and instead of tin cans falling down a flight of stairs, actually sounded good.
The tech, and settings, and HA selection and all that stuff that has been comprehensively covered by our fantastic community here already - but don’t forget most of your hearing is done by your brain. It can - with patience and practice - rewire neurons, so things sound normal (and good!) again.
It is important to create and use a program that uses no noice cancellation, frequency shifting, compression, directional mics etc. and just follows your prescription. At least then the signal going into your ear has had the best possible chance to be amplified without colouration or musical corruption.

[Willheim]

I know this well and have lived with it for a long time. Look up Diplacusis Disharmonica. I got it when my Meniere’s disease went bilateral. I couldn’t play, watch TV - I became afraid of my piano. Listen to any music. I had been a sucessful composer for 30 years, and in 48 hours this declared itself and my entire life’s work was erased.

Kind of a bummer. But you gotta play the cards you are dealt.

This happened in October 2018. Some Doctors say it never goes away, but mine has slowly abated. I can play guitar again, my gut string. Sometimes I get lost. I slow down. I find out going chromatically what tones are out. I use a tuner to be certain. Sometimes it is a specific note, or two. The lower and upper ranges were a mess.

I found that keeping at it the brain starts to retrain. I look at it as therapy like might be prescribed for another injury, say your balance is compromised - you have exercises. You do them you get better.

Mine was so bad it was terrifying. I could not understand how the brain could do that. I didn’t even try to play for the longest time.

Then I started playing notes going up a whole tone at a time all the way from from middle C and then all the way down. The extreme ranges of the piano, hi or low, were just unplayable.

After awhile there was about an octave, maybe two around middle C - I could play simple chords - but thing like a E7 b5 9 chord.

I still get lost. I don’t work as hard as I should.

Turn you head, one ear hears say a “C”, you turn your head and it sounds like a “Eb”. Or something like that.

Another thing I did was play octaves.

I found that after awhile the brain starts to pull them together. When I would start playing it was so despairing, but it would get closer in ten minutes.

I find the same thing with my word recognition. Can’t understand my son when he comes over, but after 15 minutes we can converse.

Get in the pool and learn to swim again.

It’s friggin hard.

[Willheim]

Addendum - I sifted through the replies. Many very good. I heard one mention the Oticon Mores. I own a pair, also Widex Evokes and Widex Moment Sheer.

I found that playing music using the Oticons was impossible. Some sort of comb filtering going on.
I told my audiologist. You can try a Moment Sheer and return it it within a certain period. I would definitely try that.

It was a significant difference.

[Tony3]

Widex is not as good as oticon for clarity and word recognition, and noisy environments. For me,
Word recognition is my number 1 priority.

[tenkan]

Really, said who? Of course this is just your opinion, remember everyone is different, what’s good for one is not good for all.

[Tony3]

I did say for me. I did a test at home, my wife helped. She read words used by audiologist. She read 50 random words, in 3 locations, two of the locations were in the room I was in, And one was from the kitchen area

I tried Widex
Resound
Phonak
And oticon

They were all top of the line hearing aids.
The oticon more 1 scored significantly higher.
Phonak came second, Widex 3rd and resound 4th

Oticon real 1 is also rated the best hearing aid for noisy environments

Tried to include link, it’s in hearing tracker. Don’t know if I can in this forum.