GN launching a Jabra branded M&RIE product at Costco

@tenkan

With the recurring lag between left and right ears, that has happened in all situations - listening to a Podcast outdoors when walking, listening to music inside, or even talking on the phone, also indoors. This really is quite annoying.

As far as losing connection on the right or left side, when placing the phone in my pocket, my main testing was outdoors. I tried it for just a few minutes indoors, and it did seem better. I’m guessing your point is that the signal may bounce around a bit indoors, which would maintain the connection better, and that does make sense.

I did call the Fitter at Costco that I worked with, and she indicated that I shouldn’t be losing connection in the way I was when walking outside. She is going to contact her Jabra rep and see what she has to say.

I had already called Jabra/Resound tech support. They suggested doing a full network reset of my phone, which obviously would wipe out all my WiFi settings, Bluetooth connections to headphones, my car, etc. This is a week old phone, and I’m very doubtful this would do anything but waste my time. Kind of like “format c:” being the fall back tech suggestion for PC issues a number of years ago.

She did acknowledge this problem has been occasionally reported with some of their other hearing aid models, but apparently not yet for this one (although it is obviously quite new). She also suggested trying it with another phone, but my old Note 8, and my wife’s S8 are Android 9, and so not compatible with the Jabra’s.

I did go ahead and unpair my Jabra’s, deleted the Enhance Pro App, rebooted the phone, and re-did the whole process. No change occurred.

I’m hoping that this particular unit pair is glitchy, and that this doesn’t represent an inherent flaw with this whole line of hearing aids. So I’m hoping, or will request if they don’t offer, that a replacement pair won’t have this flaw. I was curious to see if others had experienced this issue, which was part of why I posted.

Yes exactly. But it would be great to be able to use another phone just for clarification, I even heard someone mentioned when they removed their protective cover from their phone,they were able to eliminate any further drop outs.

Yes it’s been reported by a number of people, there’s actually a few posts on hearingtracker with the exact issue.

If you use the search button from right here on hearingtracker you’ll come up quite a few different posts, one is here.

https://forum.hearingtracker.com/search?q=Bluetooth%20connection%20issues

Thanks @tenkan. I’ll do some searching tomorrow. I understand why these glitches and compatibility issues arise, given the diversity of devices, settings and so forth. But man, I do get tired of tracking down these obscure technical problems.

I may have to give ‘gabeldorsche’ a try!! :grin:

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I’m trialing the Jabra aids as possible replacements for my KS9s. I’ve also experienced the problem with randomly losing the “centralized” sound placement in my head (using Pixel 4a), although I haven’t yet traced it to any particular situation. Also, it often seems that one of the Jabras loses the Bluetooth connection somehow, but it’s easily restored by toggling Bluetooth on the phone.

With the KS9s, Bluetooth Classic streaming works very reliably indoors (once paired and connected), even if I’m some distance from the phone, but I very often experience a drop if I’m outdoors, unless I can keep the phone up high on my right side (right HA is the Bluetooth receiver). I’ve assumed that this is because Bluetooth is more robust in environments that reflect the signal.

BTW - even after followup adjustments by the fitter yesterday, sound quality when streaming on the KS9s is still superior (to my ears) to the Jabras. Better lower frequency response is one of the differences.

Thanks for the post, @garyh. Regarding the KS9’s streaming audio quality - interesting on the low frequency being better. How would you compare what you get with the KS9’s to an even inexpensive pair of conventional headphones? Because of the physics involved, it seems like an impossible task for the tiny receivers to pass along even semi-decent bass response. For me, with the current settings and configuration I now have, listening to streaming music is completely unacceptable because of the absent bass, and actually mid-bass.

And on that subject, I listened to some music on Tidal for a while using the Sony MDR-1000X headphones, and it sounded awesome. Relying on very subjective and unreliable auditory memory, I think it was better than with my Widex Unique 330’s. I would think that having the in-ear microphone would make a substantial difference with headphones, and it certainly seemed that way. Better spatial definition than what I recall with the Widex.

And other than the streaming audio quality, how would you compare the overall performance of the Jabra’s vs your KS9’s, in terms of speech audibility, and whatever else is important to you?

If the Jabra’s bluetooth issues can’t be resolved, KS10 is next on my list.

On all these subjective comparisons, e.g., “the sound is too tinny,” “there’s not enough bass,” etc., I think the difficulty of evaluating such a critique is knowing that person’s “normal” perception. Maybe they’re used to their hearing loss, more bass, less high frequency - so adding too much high frequency back is tinny. Maybe they’re a Beats audio type - so unless hearing is heavy on bass, it’s just not “normal.” And without knowing whether someone is wearing an open fit or a close fit, it’s hard to know how much bass from streaming is simply escaping the poster’s ear canals. For receivers, based on reading a number of posts, I’d say KS9’s and KS10’s provide a pretty good amount of bass - but without knowing all the rest of the above, it’s hard to know what that means relative to Jabras or anything else. With the Quattros and a close fit (~1 mm vent size now), I’m happy with my bass but it is definitely not subwoofer quality! Where it really matters, go with a hi-fi amplifier and forget about HA’s and headphones. Even headphones are lacking when you want earth-shaking bass. (I have ~good low frequency hearing without HA’s).

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So, how to compare streaming audio between KS9s and Jabras:

First, I’m not an audiophile, by any means. So, my first metric for streaming audio is how “natural” the speaker (think, narrator of an audiobook or podcast) sounds, compared to how I remember them over the past decade or so. Probably a better benchmark for me is the “sound” of a voice with which I have decades of familiarity, including in person. In that regard, streaming an HD voice telephone connection directly into my hearing aids (KS9s) was a revelation. As was facetiming with my daughter and grandson on a Macbook, using the KS9 as the “headset”. Very accurate and comprehensible, similar to listening in person, and so much better than using Macbook speakers. So far (and the fitter made some changes yesterday), the Jabras seem less accurate than the KS9s according to this metric (HD telephone connections). Plus, the Jabras don’t directly accept streaming from my 2021 Macbook Air.

As to music - my Pixel 4a will pair with the Jabras and the KS9s simultaneously, so I can fairly easily do a-b comparisons. Unfortunately, Spotify on the 4a doesn’t seem to want to recognize the Jabras as Bluetooth output devices (or I haven’t figured out how to get that to work), so I’m working with just a couple of music files uploaded to my phone so far. Jabras sound “thin”; KS9s are more “full”, but maybe a bit “boomy”. :slight_smile:
I think much of this had to do with programming; I have a post comparing the KS9 fit to the Jabra initial fit (from Target and Resound Smart Fit), which shows some big (to me) differences. Fitting comparison for KS9 and Jabra Enhance (Resound One)
I need to update that post with the changes made yesterday at Costco.

As to speech understanding, performance in live performance theater venues (important to me), etc. - wow, that’s a work in progress. Went to a performance at the outdoor theater tonight here in Ashland and was toggling settings for Jabras and KS9s and swapping the devices in my ears. It’s exhausting. They’re different. “Better” is hard to discern. I think the Jabra programming can be improved (and so could the KS9s for that matter).

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I agree 100% with everything you said, Jim. Subjectivity, personal preference, and the current state of one’s auditory perceptual system play heavily into these matters, making objective assessment difficult.

That said, with the current state of the programming in my Jabra’s, and the fit of the closed domes in my very narrow ear canals, it’s not that the base is lacking, it’s that it is completely absent. To use an analogy, if you have a 3-way speaker (or even a 2-way), and cut the wires to everything but the tweeters, that’s what I’m now hearing with streaming.

I’m hoping it can be improved, although the physics involved makes me doubtful. But as you said, I may just have to resign myself to wearing headphones for anything over than conversational podcasts.

Thanks @garyh. That is very helpful. This is my first experience with direct streaming to my hearing aids, so this context is useful.

And I definitely agree - testing and adjusting can be exhausting! On the one hand, it’s great that we can customize things to such a large degree, from dome type and fit, to tweaking the large number of variables available in programming, etc. On the other hand, as I commented to my wife this morning as we were out taking a walk, sometimes I wish I could buy something and it would just work! It seems that 90% of my life is devoted to troubleshooting one electronic system or another!

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On the general topic of bluetooth connectivity issues when the phone is placed in one’s pocket:

Is it the case that the Jabra’s are using Bluetooth LE to maximize battery life? Or some equivalent that uses less power? If so, that would certainly explain why I have no problem with connecting to my Sony headphones while the phone is in my pocket, while it is problematic with the Jabra’s.

And further, can the hearing aid programming be modified to allow greater battery use for the Bluetooth connection? Ideally, I could turn this mode On when walking outside listening to a podcast, and back Off when I’m done. I would happily trade some battery life for better bluetooth performance when needed.

Is this possible, or just a pipe-dream?

I think that’s the catch. To make a fair comparison, instead of trying to compare apples to oranges, you’d ideally need at least the same fitting algorithm, the same domes or molds with the same amount of venting. Say fit whatever HA’s you want to compare using the generic open source fitting algorithm NAL-NL2, since you probably need to use different fitting software, pray that both OEMs have implemented NAL-NL2 the very same way, and do REM.

So if you do all this, same molds, REM says same output across the frequency spectrum within a few dB at each frequency channel, how can one have more bass than the other? (REM means you’ve measured and adjusted the output to a fixed OUTPUT level).

The one possibility would be that bass on HA’s is only formally presented down to about 100 Hz. So if one brand has “more bass” than another in spite of the REM adjustment to the same output, perhaps it could be that in the undocumented low, low frequency region, let’s say the KS10’s keep putting out bass down to 20 Hz whereas the Jabra’s give up by 75 Hz and don’t go as low into the undocumented region as the KS10’s.

I couldn’t easily find an online electronic KS10 user manual with specs but I just assumed that they’re ! identical to the Phonak Audeo P90. Here are the specs for the Phonak P90 MP receivers vs. the GN ReSound Jabra Enhance MP receivers. They’re almost identical in output characteristics. You can click to enlarge either the Phonak P90 or the Jabra Enhance image to see a larger version of either image.

Phonak P90 MP Receiver                 Jabra Enhance MP Receiver

Source of Phonak info: https://www.phonakpro.com/content/dam/phonakpro/gc_hq/en/products_solutions/hearing_aid/audeo_paradise/documents/datasheet_audeo_paradise_r.pdf

Source of Jabra Enhance Info: See the “Receiver-in-ear Hearing Instrument user guide (at end in Technical Specifications”) under Product Documents Collapsed Tab/Button on following web page: Jabra Enhance Pro PM | Jabra Support

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Went to Costco today for my 1 month checkin. Told them I wanted to try the M&RIE and they did it :slight_smile:

They did a quick test and with the M&RIE I gained 10db on a couple of frequencies, and I could tell a difference immediately. Everything sounds more natural, including voices. After 3 hours I am very happy with them. No feedback at all with hand completely covering ears. I don’t know how to describe all the differences, but everythings just sounds more real and not like it’s coming through a radio. As always will take a few weeks to get a real life sense of them, but as of right now I am thrilled with them. I like the Jabra before, but now I’m pretty much sold on them.

On the subject of streaming music, yes they sound very treble heavy and zero bass. Does not bother me as I do not stream music, and audio books sound fine for me.

Update: Concerning bass. Did the triple tap on my iPhone 6S and brought up the quick HA settings. Added bass, took down treble. It sounds much better streaming now, can actually hear bass playing and a fuller sound. Mind you these will never compete with a cover the ear headphone or even an Air Pod, but it does at least have some bass. Good enough if you’re in the waiting room getting tires put on your car but there are much better options at home.

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An interesting observation regarding streaming, and using the phone’s ability to use equalizer settings to adjust output:

With my Jabra’s connected via Bluetooth, using the (Android) Galaxy S21 Ultra, when I go to ‘Sounds and vibration’…‘Sound quality and effects’… the options for ‘Equalizer’ and ‘Adapt sound’ are greyed out and unavailable. If I connect my Sony headphones using Bluetooth, they are available to configure.

I checked my wife’s Galaxy S8, to which she has her KS9’s attached, and both ‘Equalizer’ and ‘Adapt sound’ are both available for use.

So it’s as if at least my phone doesn’t recognize the Jabra’s as connected ‘Headphones’ which is why those options are greyed out. @Fig’s idea of adjusting the bass here, which is a good one, although it obviously wouldn’t have a huge impact, is not an option on my phone.

I’d be interested to hear from other Jabra users who have Android phones. Are these Sound quality options available on your phones? And what is your assessment in terms of bass adequacy when listening to music?

@DLCPhoto, i have the S9 and just got my Jabra’s on Wednesday. I followed your directions and got the same thing. When attempting to adjust, i got “The current sound effect is not supported by your audio path.” I made adjustments through to Jabra App to increase the bass. Unfortunately, the app kept locking up as I tried to switch between programs. Maybe it’s the difference between the MiOS (Jabra) and and K9s Bluetooth?

I also have the KS9s and Jabras. As I understand things (perhaps incorrectly), the KS9s use Bluetooth 4.2 (“Bluetooth Classic”) and show up as a standard Bluetooth headset. The advantage is that they’ll work as a headset with any device using bluetooth (e.g., my Macbook). The disadvantage is battery drain, compared to Bluetooth LE. Android ASHA is a non-standard mechanism for streaming audio to hearing aids. Its advantage is that it uses Bluetooth Low Energy and consumes less battery. A disadvantage is that it works only on certain versions of Android, and Android audio application developers have to choose to support it (or not). My 2021 Macbook Air doesn’t recognize the Jabras as bluetooth devices. Also, ASHA uses its own audio codec. I wonder if one of the reasons the Jabras sound “thinner” to my ears, compared to the KS9s, is that the codec itself might be optimized for speech, not music. That should be remedied when the Bluetooth LE Audio standard is final, assuming ReSound updates the Jabras.

Anyway, I tried a few experiments this morning, using my Pixel 4a. I can pair the KS9s and the Jabras to my phone, simultaneously. If I play a music file using Google File manager, Youtube Music (another Google app), or the Pi Music Player, the app allows me to choose to output the sound to either the KS9s or the Jabras, so these apps see both devices as audio destinations. However, Spotify doesn’t seem to “see” the Jabras. But, if I’ve been playing a music file in Pi with the output directed to the Jabras, and then activate Spotify and play a file, Spotify streams to the Jabras but shows the KS9s as the output device. Ugh.

The Pi music player has a built in equalizer that works with the Jabras, but I can’t get the sound to be as “full” as it sounds with the KS9s.

The Costco fitter made some changes to increase bass for streaming with the Jabras, but they don’t seem to have had much effect. I have the ReSound Smart Fit software for the Jabras, and I plan to tinker a bit with the gain settings before my next Costco visit in two weeks.

I am iOS and therefore do not have experience with the various android versions/phones. But on the iPhone/iPad triple tap brings up a quick access menu to adjust the HA’s (volume, program, etc). Also within the Jabra app the bass/midrange/treble setting do help the bass, and the quality of sound. However there is no way a “speaker” the size of a pinhead is going to sound really good. To me it’s like the speakers on the phone. They work, but even a cheap audio system will be better.

But, the good news is the Jabra has excellent feedback protection so completely covering the ear HiFi headphones work, and airpods as well. But IMHO no matter what you do the Jabra’s will never give good quality audio, streaming music.

Very interesting posts from @MisTrae, @garyh and @Fig - thank you.

I’ve found the Jabra App to crash somewhat frequently on my S21 as I’ve made adjustments. Not terrible, but a bit annoying.

This is exactly my understanding as well. In fact, because my Note 8 was not ASHA compliant in this context, I actually upgraded to the S21 Galaxy Ultra the week before I got the Jabras, since they are on the ‘official’ list for Jabra. I have been thinking about upgrading anyway, since the Note 8 will no longer get security updates and such, but this is definitely what forced the issue for me.

I’m also guessing that because this is an LE-variant of Bluetooth, the distance for effective connection is shorter as well, explaining why I can’t even keep my phone in the pocket of my shorts and keep the connection to both the Left and Right aids. Do other Jabra owners experience this as well?

I would be curious to poke around in this, just to see what options are provided. If you wouldn’t mind, please PM me the info about where you got this. I did some of this with Compass GPS on my Widex 330’s, although it didn’t seem that I could do more good than harm, given my limited experience!

I absolutely agree. Because of the physics involved, I wasn’t expecting even “good” bass with these. But I was surprised that the bass actually seemed to be completely absent! I have used them with my Sony over-the-ear’s, and the sound is excellent, and feedback is non-existent. I’m guessing that the M&RIE concept is helping vs my Widex, but I haven’t tried to do back-to-back comparisons yet.

I continue to be bugged by the recurrent loss of correct sync between Left and Right while streaming - with the result that imaging is not central as it should be, but is heard separately in both ears. I know one poster confirmed experiencing this as well, but I am curious if others have as well. Just trying to figure out if this is the nature of the beast, or if I happen to have an underperforming pair.

Bluetooth Classic is usually v1.0 -> 3.0, typically 2.x. Bluetooth 4.x is usually referred to as Bluetooth Low Energy (BLE) but also contain Bluetooth Classic for reasons of backward compatibility, so will a phone having BT 5.2, I think. I think the Marvels and the Paradise and related Phonak HA’s use both BT Classic (for audio transmission) and BLE for HA/smartphone communication because it saves battery, e.g., when you change HA settings using the smartphone app - don’t need BT Classic for that.

Interesting. It makes me wonder if perhaps the Jabra require an ASHA-compatible phone to be able to connect using the Enhance Pro App, and be able to change settings, etc., and if there is backward compatibility in the Jabra itself, perhaps a ‘regular’ Bluetooth connection can be made with a non-ASHA phone (like my prior Note 8). Probably not, but I’m going to give it a try.

I think your Note 8 should be able to make adjustments via the app (based on this https://www.resound.com/en-us/help/compatibility#androiddevice) butI I’m quite confident you won’t do any streaming unless you have an auxillary device.