GN Hearing first to support direct Android streaming using ASHA

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#61

Had the wife hold the phone with the ReSound Smart 3D app on its STATUS page - shows connectivity and relative battery charge of HA’s. Walked out into the backyard until wife said both HA’s were dropping in and out of connectivity. Got 77 feet into backyard (23.5 meters). Switched to using the nRF app RSSI graph, which shows signal strength (lower readings are weaker). The nRF app connectivity agreed with the Smart 3D (not surprising as both depend on the HA and phone antennas). The signal dropped out again at around 77 feet and was around -95 dBm when it did (-100 dBm is considered to be about the limit of connectivity and -20 dBM a VERY strong signal). Interestingly, when I am just a foot or two from my Quattro’s the signal strength never exceeds about -65 to -70 dBm. So I wonder if the HA’s are deliberately down-regulating the strength of their own output to conserve battery (I presume since you can control the HA’s from the phone app, that the HA’s could have an awareness of the strength of the phone BT signal and based on that, decide how strong their own output needs to be to maintain a decent connection).

So I wonder if the Quattro’s in the future will be able to accept direct streaming from other BT 5.0+ enabled devices without having to use my Phone Clip+ as an intermediate device? If the BT streaming is as good or better through ASHA as I’m seeing after the Quattro firmware and Smart 3D updates to just plain old BLE streaming, I should be able to walk around my house, leave my phone or other streaming device in one place, and hopefully still get decent streaming in just about every room of the house.

BTW, in playing around, I discovered my Google Home Mini also puts out BLE and just as for my Quattro’s, I can pick it up at pretty decent signal strength 35 to 40 feet away on my phone through one to two interior sheetrock walls. It also stays at a fairly low output, measuring between -50 to -60 dBm or so, even when I am right next to it. I guess a -20 dBm output would be much more signal strength than needed and at risk of causing RFI for the neighbors (or even other devices of my own), etc.

#62

And that’s just the bluetooth part. Android is also complicated. Just because the hardware theoretically supports ASHA and the device has Android 10, does not mean the device supports ASHA. This is up to the vendor of the device.

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#63

Now I’m wondering if Phonak, having put a lot of time and effort into BlueTooth Classic, will do anything with ASHA. Does Phonak’s hardware miniaturization effort, allowing for BlueTooth Classic to even be possible, give enough competition or will ASHA win the day? Your thoughts?

#64

To steal a phrase: Predictions are really hard, especially about the future. I think it’s attributed to Yogi Berra, but I have no clue. If I had to bet, I think ASHA fades away in a few years, but as I said, i have no clue.

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#65

@TraderGary Phonak made a strategic decision to support bluetooth classic streaming rather than MFi. For non-iPhone users, this was a big deal. However, recall how supposedly difficult it was (initially) for them to support multi-pairing. According to what I was told by Phonak, this is because they had to push their technology to the limit to get bluetooth classic streaming to work. IMO, it’s a much bigger leap to support MFi and/or ASHA than it was to support pairing with two devices. Therefore, I speculate that it’s easier to support MFi and ASHA together, since they are so similar than it would be to support bluetooth classic and MFi and/or ASHA. Again, I’m speculating because I have no inside information. The only people that know if Phonak HAs can support ASHA and/or MFi is Phonak.

Having used Marvels and Opns and having an iPhone and an android phone, I really like MFi. I would much rather use MFi / ASHA than bluetooth classic, if I had the choice. My android will never support ASHA so unless I replace it, even when Oticon offers the firmware that supports ASHA, I won’t be able to use it. Since you are committed to Pixel phones, ASHA would be great, so I hope Phonak offers it.

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#66

@MDB I think you have it backwards. Bluetooth classic is an old technology. While the Phonak HAs are great for people who don’t have phones that support MFi or ASHA, transmitting from one HA to the other because bluetooth classic only supports streaming to one device is a kludge which results in uneven battery consumption, as well, the connection between the two devices has to transmit through the wearer’s head. Not nearly as elegant as streaming directly to both HAs simultaneously. Bluetooth advancements are in low-energy. I would be really surprised if MFi and ASHA don’t take over the market and completely displace bluetooth classic. This won’t happen overnight, but it will happen.

#67

Very Interesting! Thanks for your insight, darylm. I’ve always been disappointed at the end of the day to see my left ear with more than half battery left and my right ear close to depletion. Knowing what I know now, I will get disposable batteries next time. It’s going to be very interesting to see where we will be positioned next year. I may very well be upgrading my Marvels to something better! :blush:

#68

You may very well be right. My thinking is that Phonak is currently selling a lot of hearing aids. ASHA needs to overcome two problems. There’s only one hearing aid that currently supports it and 4 phones (soon to be 8) that make up a very small percent of market share. I think it’s really hard to overcome market share. Admittedly Marvels have their flaws, but most people seem pretty happy with them. ASHA may be better technology–so was Sony Betamax.

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#69

My understanding is that Oticon will be supporting it with a firmware update. MFi and ASHA are very similar, so would expect that any HA that supports MFi will also support ASHA. There is no doubt that the market share for ASHA will be much smaller than MFi or Marvels for the foreseeable future, due to how few phones support Android 10. It will grow bit by bit each year, but it will take a long time before it catches up to MFi. Phonak saw this gaping hole in the market and went for it. It will be interesting to see what their next move will be.

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#70

It seems to me that Android Version 10 will be rapidly rolling out over the next few months in most newer phones, and if ASHA is built in, then phones are not going to be the weak link in the chain. However, I suspect it will take longer for the hearing aid companies to build it into their aids. It may be a hardware as well as a software upgrade.

I don’t follow the Android stuff much, and not iPhone either for that matter, but one thing I find strange with Android is that while it seems inevitable that version 10 will be coming with new or fairly new models of phones, it does not seem to be expected that it will be able to be updated on all that many older phones. That is going to be a bit of a drag on the acceptance of ASHA in the market if that is the case. This article at the link below gives some estimations as to when and to what models Android 10 is expected to be compatible with. I see that me wife’s less than a year old Moto G6 Play is not on the list.

When is Android 10 Coming to my Phone?

#71

On this and other posts, you have equated getting Android 10 as the same as being ASHA compatible. They are not. Android 10 is necessary for ASHA compatibility, but it is not sufficient. Pixel 2XL and 2 are examples.

#72

That is unfortunate. Perhaps availability of ASHA is a long way from becoming mainstream then.

#73

All you need do is Google “Android Version Market Share”.

https://www.google.com/search?q=android+version+market+share&rlz=1C1SQJL_enUS816US816&oq=android+version+marke&aqs=chrome.0.0j69i57j0l4.5241j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

And you can see the version fragmentation problem. Apple can update their walled garden all at one time since they are in total control. Android version is controlled by individual manufacturers and ISP’s.

#74

Phonak doesn’t need ASHA, just like they don’t need MFi, there is no way they are doing to use these systems.

Whilst their solution is not as tightly integrated into the phone operating system, it’s also a lot less reliant on the phone operating system, and offers streaming from non smart phone devices.

My hunch is that Android fragmentation will cause significant issues for ASHA rollout to non Pixel phones.

Two examples are (1) low cost Android phone manufacturers may decide to not include ASHA support in their devices because it’s too costly and not important, or (2) Bugs in ASHA arise that require an Android OS update but the Android handset manufacturer does not push out the update (which is common, as most Android phones don’t get every OS update that is available). Google may even decide ASHA is too difficult and give up (they are renown for abandoning even popular apps and services).

Phonak has pulled a masterstroke here. The other manufacturers are nowhere near being able to offer a Bluetooth classic option and will have to either go the ASHA route (which is an imperfect solution) or commit to the three to four years of development that an equivalent to the SWORD chip requires.

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#75

The Achilles heel of the Phonak work around is that it uses Classic Bluetooth to communicate to one hearing aid only, and then that hearing aid tries to transmit to the other with a high frequency 2.4 GHz signal that does not go through your head and needs surrounding surfaces to bounce off of. BLE as in MFi goes direct to each hearing aid. Not perfect either, but is better.

If Google has not built ASHA into the core product that is a serious mistake on their part though. The basic pairing functionality needs to be built into the core version 10 android system. Each phone manufacturer should not have to develop their own. The hearing aid mnaufacturers should be responsible for their phone remote app, but not the core pairing like Apple does with their MFi.

Still strikes me that the obvious solution is to not spit into the wind, and just buy an iPhone, and MFi aids. Problem solved.

#76

In real world usage, and having just come from being outside for three hours in the wilderness with Phonak Marvels 90-13T streaming nearly the whole time (and any time that I was streaming it wasn’t interrupted), the Achilles heel you reference is not as easily provoked as you make it seem (losing connection to sending sound to the other aid). It’s there and I’ve experienced it, but it’s more of a blue moon than anything. I’d much rather have that than deal with AHSA compatibility woes, which are significant. And we’ve yet to see the bugs with ASHA. If it follows suit with MFi, they could be significant. (I was an early adopter of MFi with the original ReSound LiNX in 2014). Needless to say, I love the Phonak solution. More reliable for me than MFi was, even comparing to the latest MFi with ReSound Quattro that I trialed for 6 weeks. It works great, and works with my Mac!

Note: I don’t work for Phonak. I just love my hearing aids.

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#77

I seem to recall that most if not all of these digital aids have an e2e transmission protocol between each aid running at something like 2.4.
So I don’t see that as any kind of heel.
I’ll grant that apparently mfi has a discrete connection to each aid…but does it? :slight_smile:
I would still say it’s better that tech products keep to standards than locking themselves in to one proprietary concept. Phonak is doing it.
On topic…:)…one could say the same thing about getting an ASHA compatible phone as you are saying with your wind spitting.
There is no problem anyway.

#78

The point that ASHA will take time to become available has been mentioned numerous times by numerous people. There is no doubt it will take time, if only based on how long it has historically taken for new android releases to become widely available. The one thing that ASHA has going for it is that people who can afford high-end HAs that support MFi or ASHA can also afford new phones that support MFi or ASHA.

Time will tell, but there is currently no reason to believe ASHA will not be supported in low cost phones. All phones support bluetooth. ASHA is software. It won’t cost anything to support it, since the development is already done.

Why would you speculate there will be bugs in ASHA? The android developers are not stupid and ASHA is not rocket science. It’s already developed and released and HAs are / will soon be available that support it. MFi and ASHA are very similar. As a user of MFi and BT Classic, I can tell you that MFi is a far better way to integrate HAs with a mobile phone.

There is no doubt that Phonak made a smart decision to implement BT Classic streaming, but in the long term, direct streaming using BLE will take over.

#79

I posted elsewhere that Android is not monolithic. Some parts are developed by Google, some parts are developed by the SoC vendor (e.g., Qualcomm) and some parts are developed by the handset manufacturer. Unfortunately, it’s not easy to get around this reality, which is very different for Apple, since they develop everything.

#80

HAs do have a direct connection that is independent of bluetooth. Whether it’s 2.4 GHz or some other frequency is another matter. You can find out by looking at the FCC submission, which lists every RF emission.

Not sure what your point is, “but does it?”. In MFi and ASHA, the HAs each communicate directly with the mobile using BLE, not with each other.

In the case of Marvels, only one HA communicates with the mobile using either the HPF or A2DP profile. Neither of these profiles support multiple connections, so one HA must stream the audio to the other. Obviously the shortest distance between the two HAs is through the wearer’s head, which attenuates the signal and also introduces latency as well as increased battery consumption in the HA that maintains the connection with the mobile.

Your comment that Phonak is adhering to standard is somewhat silly. ASHA is also an open standard. MFi is a standard, but it’s owned by Apple. Eventually, when the Bluetooth SIG gets around to it, there will probably be a profile for HAs. The only reason industry developed MFi and ASHA is because the Bluetooth SIG took too long.