Getting Fitted for Starkey Evolv AI 2400 CIC Tomorrow. What Should I Know?

Hearing Aids
#36

Mine have been ordered and will arrive next week, however I did ask my audi to push the appointment out for another 10 days so that I can have a 2-3 week trial of the Phonak Virto P-312

The P-312 are BIG. Pairing them to my phones and laptop was easy and they automatically switch to whatever device I’m using, which is good. If I go to answer a call on my work phone then they switch to it; if I make a call on my personal phone then they switch.

So far, the Phonak’s have been good - the sound is a lot more natural than the Starkey CICs I trialled. I was surprised at just how different they sounded. My own voice sounds more natural and not robotic like it did before. Sounds are also not as sharp and shrill - for instance, water running from the tap, the kettle boiling (with the Starkey’s all I could hear was the noise from the kettle and nothing else but the Phonak’s almost completely remove it), paper rustling sounds more natural instead of very sharp, typing sounds are not loud. I’m really quite impressed with the sound. I’ve got the myPhonak app to play around with everything but my audi advised me to leave them on Auto as much as possible and let the HAs figure everything out. I’m still having difficulty with voices, but will try and adjust some of the sliders in the app and see if I can make it better.

A couple of minor things I’ve noticed with the BT - when answering a call by pressing the button on my right HA, the call is connected but it is still ringing/vibrating on my Apple Watch. It’s like the watch doesn’t know I’ve answered the call. the only way to stop it is to hit the END button on the watch. The other thing is that sometimes when I am in the car the audio suddenly connects to my HAs instead of playing thru the car. A little weird but it has only done it twice in the 5 days I’ve had them.

They are also comfortable too - I barely notice they are in my ears. Will be interesting to see how the Starkey’s compare to them. I’ll be sure to post more as the days go by.

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#37

@richard.silver.
Thanks for your additional info. You make me really curious about my upcoming findings. Two more days to go before my appointment is scheduled on Thursday.
Unfortunately, it has been some time since I tried the Starkey Evolv 2400 ITC, so a good comparison will be difficult. I think you did well by pushing out your appointment to give it a good try for now.

Your own voice experience will without doubt also have to do with the occlusion by the molds and the venting they prepared for you on them. That’s one of the negatives in using molds in stat of tulips I imagine.

I also noticed that there was a big difference in sound experience between Starkey and Phonak. But that may also vary subjectively from person to person, just what you like and how your ears interpret it. And the audi is able to adjust some things for you also. As using them for a longer time will do a big thing also as you get used to the translation you ears and brain will make for you.

What interests me most is what remains of speech in noise with the Phonak virto P90. I remember Starkey Evolv ITC did a good job for me. I also could listen to the TV boxes during eating (without BT connected). A lot depends on where you lost frequencies are in the speech area. So what works for you will not necessarily work for another person.

My experience with the connectivity with the Phonak Marvel 90 and Paradise 90 BTE RIC’s is that you have to set in the app yourself whether you want to have the sound through the HAs or through the speakers/boxes of the sound system. When the BT connections are registered/ known the connection will be made nearly instantly. But that also applies to the BT telephone connection. If for instance a train passes, the other party can hardly understand me anymore if I use the two-way BT while calling. Then I have to wait for the train to pass or quickly turn off the phone BT and use the phone microphone which works better at that time.

Another thing is with the streaming/ power up time which will be better with the Paradise 312 version as the rechargeables from Starkey will not be able to work the whole day long. You will need to charge them in between so you will have to carry the charger on the go. My pockets are sometimes to small to carry my keys, glasses, cards etc. Two batteries will then easier to carry as a charging case.

Quaint is though that the Phonak ITC will be bigger then the Starkey ITC as I thought batteries would need less space.

Enjoy your Phonaks for the time being.

#38

@richard.silver
Hi Richard how are you getting along with your experiences?
I now have tried my Phonak Virto P90 for almost two weeks and can now give some of my findings.

I like the fact that my batteries last about more then 2,5 days in contrary I used to reload my Starkey Evolv 2400 ITC at the end of the day already. (I do stream a lot from mobile phone and tv which sucks the batteries).

The Phonak Virto, which I ordered with an extra volume- turn knob. I really like the possibility to easy fast change the volume without first having to start the app on my phone. Very useful if you enter a stark changing volume area, a shop or a street or whatever.

The Phonak is bigger I think because of the volume turn-wheel in diameter. I assume that if you leave out this turnwheel it will be smaller maybe comparable to the Starkey. Also the Phonak is flatter/ less pronouncing out of my ear.
So giving me less wind noise with the Phonak Virto. And also the Starkey has 3 copper battery electrodes on the surface where the Phonak only has no discolored items on the surface.

For me the sound from the Starkey was a bit warmer where the Phonak sounds more sharp/ crispier. I have the impression that is also why I think I can better hear voices with the Phonak. But voices in noise ,I cannot remember enough the Starkey, stays problematic for me. But if not to much noise around I feel like a spy walking around on the street and hearing what people around me are discussing without them knowing I hear everything! Even turning the volume knob to hear them even better.
Impression of listening to music is that the Starkey gave me more satisfaction… although remembering so long ago is very difficult. And I am a big music fan but for me speech is most important. I could always still use fine headphones to hear basses more pronounced.

The connectivity with BT from the Phonak is much better then the Starkey I had. It takes a while for my mobile phone to connect that could be faster… but I assume that would cost a lot of battery usage extra. If one of the HA’s run out of battery connecting to change programm by phone though did not work correctly.

The high frequency range of the Starkey which is higher than in the Phonak I could not hear the difference. Assume that has to do with my high frequency loss.

Phonak does a good job in finding out and changing the settings in the automatic mode if there is loud or quiet environment or f.I. music etc. I hardly change the program myself as it is not needed and streaming automatically connects also.d I could hear everything perfectly.

Using the cellphone gives a better two way sound for the one who is calling I had the impression. An

What I also like very much in the Phonak is that I can change the balance of volume between environment and my phone streaming. Unfortunately I do not know anymore if this was possible withe Starkey.

At last the Phonak does not have the gadgets like health and translating speech what is a pitty. But I wonder if this fails me as I use my smart watch to watch the time and steps I walked. My hart rate is not that important to me although even that is visible on my watch.

Concluding:
I would really like to try out the Starkey once more but as this is not an option I think I prefer the Phonak after all because off:

  1. Connectivity BT
  2. Fast volume changing.
  3. Possibility to balance volume between streaming and environment.
  4. Longer lasting power
  5. Very good voice recognition.
  6. Better wind noise reducing.
  7. Good fitting in ear.

If any questions left I would be glad to answer and looking forward to your opinion and findings.

#39

The Phonak Virto uses the own microphone during a phone call. Is it possible to reduce the environment noise in case this is excessive?

#40

Unfortunately not.

:slight_smile:

#41

In addition to my long post three days ago, as I saw that the richard.silver did not respond till now, I wanted to add something I really mis on the Phonaks what was present in the Starkey:

Starkey has a test mode of the HA’s which is great and Phonak does not have it. My hearing with the Phonaks was impaired, and I suffered two days on bad hearing without knowing what the problem was! The Starkey would have told me immediately after starting up that the problem was at the speakers. And you can run the test in the app if you struggle on something. I changed the waxfilters in my Phonaks and solved the problem.

Phonak has a lot of sounds, f.I. when you change program or volume or when battery is getting low. I will learn it, I hope soon enough. But I better liked the Starkey telling me in words that I use music program or whatever and telling me battery almost empty instead of counting beeps.

And as zebra already says no you can not turn down the microphone volume if people cannot hear you at a phone call. But I have the impression that the Phonaks do a better job in a phone call in noisy environment. Although I cannot test nor proof it.

#42

Hi @emile.heilbron, good to hear from you and my apologies for not responding sooner - work has been crazy busy.

Thanks for posting your experience - very helpful. My Phonak’s were ordered without the volume wheel but the button on each is programmed for volume up and down (2db increments I think). With the Starkey’s I was very surprised at how big they are - bigger then the P-312 it seems. They are very noticeable in my ears, and of course because they stick out they are picking up a massive amount of wind noise, even though the audi put the wind setting at the maximum. With the Phonak I didn’t get any wind noise whatsoever because the were slightly further in.

The charging case for the Starkey’s is very large and not the sort of thing you can put in your pocket. The battery does last a full day easily (I don’t do a lot of streaming yet), and I switch them off and put them in the HA dryer/UV thing every 2nd night. I know that one day I will forget to remove them from the dryer early enough to charge them to ensure I have enough battery for the day.

I am finding the Starkey’s a little too sharp - to me the Phonak’s sounded more natural. With both models I am still having a hard time with voices. A couple of weeks ago I was at a very noisy restaurant and couldn’t hear a word from someone 3 ft away, but I could hear a glass clink 100 ft away at the back of the restaurant. It was frustrating and overwhelming, but I should have spent more time playing with the MyPhonak app as you can adjust a lot of variables. I’m sure if I had the patience that night I could have found a setting that probably would have worked for me.

You mentioned you like the ability to change the balance of volume vs environment while streaming with the Phonak’s. I too like this; however the Starkey’s don’t have this at all. The EdgeAI feature on the Starkey’s is good, but I’m fairly certain the Phonak’s have very similar functionality but do it automatically rather than having to tap my ear. I had thought my audi forgot to program it into my Starkey’s but after playing with the app I found it is user configurable.

I agree re the BT on the Phonak - it is great being able to connect to multiple devices (including laptops) and have them switch automatically, and it definitely seems to be more reliable than the MFi Starkey BT. I thought with the MFi functionality on the Starkey’s that this would give me more options and control, but it didn’t and to be honest I wasn’t really impressed with it - I couldn’t figure out how to answer/end a call on the Starkey’s, whereas with the Phonak’s I just tapped the button on the HA. It seems the only way to answer a call on the Starkey’s is on the phone, which will then route it to the HAs. People commented that they could hear me better on the Phonaks but I sounded more distant with Starkey’s when talking on the phone. And it also appears the only way to be able to connect to 2 devices is to have both phones on the same iCloud account (not an option for me as I don’t want my work phone signed into my personal iCloud). I noticed the Starkey’s seemed to lose connection a lot according to the app - often I’d open the app and the left or right HA would show as not connected. I’d have to turn them both off then on again and then it would show correctly. I like the ability in the Starkey app to see the battery level - I wish Phonak would also display battery levels in their app as well.

The heath and wellness things on the Thrive app are not a big deal for me - I have that functionality on my watch which I wear most of the time so I can check my heart rate, number of steps, fall detection, etc.

From what I’d read and the reviews I’d watched I thought the Starkey’s would be way better than the P-312, but they aren’t. I think they are very similar and both have their pros and cons (e.g. the Starkey self test feature, the Phonak balance vs environment, rechargeable vs disposable, BT classic vs BT LE, etc), but for me - just like you - I think I do prefer the Phonaks, and for the exact same reasons you listed in your conclusion.

I have another appointment next Tuesday where I need to make my final decision. I’m about 90% certain I will go with the Phonaks for the same reasons you listed. Under the Pay As You Go option with my audi, I will get a free upgrade to the same technology level on the Phonaks every 3 years, which is a big plus (maybe by then Phonak will have made them smaller and packed in a bunch more features); and it also means I don’t have to outlay any money upfront.

#43

I too like that Starkey tells you in words “Normal”, or “Crowd”, or battery low, etc. I’m sure I’ll get used to the beeps with Phonak and given a little time I’ll know exactly what they are.

As mentioned I my previous reply, I also think the Phonaks are better in phone calls - again, no hard evidence except for feedback from callers I’ve been speaking to.

#44

@richard.silver
Thanks for you extensive reply. I think we more or less totally agree!

How to take the phone call on the Starkey I do not remember anymore… On the Phonak Virto P90 it is easy indeed press the button and on the Phonak Audeo P90 BTE just tap. I still remember saying “accept call” but do not remember anymore which brand that was.

If you do not have the extra volume wheel on your Phonak you will have less options without taking the phone out of your pocket… But I can imagine that changing the program in the Phonaks is automatically doing so well that you could do without and have instead the buttons for the volume control. (And maybe even because of that even have smaller aids). Also because of not loosing connection can keep your phone in your pocket more then with the signal loosing Starkeys.
Having volume control is very important to me because of abrupt environment changes.

I hate taking the cell phone out of my pocket for my HA’s. Unlock, search and open the app, look for things you want to do or change is playing around and should be avoided as much as possible. Though it is very useful if you can once in a while change or customize settings yourself.

Battery level not visible in Phonak app seems also less important to me as you can change the 312 battery easily if you always take a spare with you. With Starkey you need to carry the loader because you have to know the status in advance in case you leave your house. As I remember well the time left after low battery warning lasts longer in Phonaks.

About the voices in loud environments. This is a struggle in every HA it seems. But for that case the Phonak has a good solution by there Roger microphones (Select and Pen etc.), which is my next step to try out. But as I read it does a good job and one is feeling like a spy as it functions more then well.

Good luck with your final decision.
Emile

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#45

Thanks @emile.heilbron - will provide an update next week.

#46

Hey @emile.heilbron,

I hope you are well.

A couple of observations from me after having the Phonak’s for 3 or so weeks…

I’ve been walking the dog in the park recently and noticed the birds chirping (great to hear, BTW!). With the Starkey’s I could hear them loudly but could not tell at all from what direction the chirping was coming from and I couldn’t tell whether it was close by or far away; however with the Phonak’s can easily tell the direction and roughly the distance. I can tell if the bird is on my left or right side, or in front or behind. Couldn’t do that with the Starkey’s.

Connectivity is so much better with the Phonak’s and it’s great having them switch automatically between my work phone and personal phone. I did have an issue the other day when I was out walking where the devices constantly kept losing connectivity (I’d get an ascending and descending musical tone in one or both ears). I shut down the app and tried again. No luck. Turned off BT on phone. No luck. Opened and closed the door on each HA, again no luck. This went on for about 45 mins. Then as suddenly as it started, it stopped and they connected and stayed connected. The only thing I can think of is that the day before I had upgraded from iOS 16.1 to 16.1.1. Not sure if that was coincidental or whether it was a factor. It seems to be stable now.

Another thing I have noticed is that a few times a day (maybe 5 or 6) the sound goes really dull/flat - almost as if the HAs are turned off. It comes back again after about 30 seconds. Not sure what’s causing this as I have checked the wax guards, cleaned the vents, etc to make sure everything is nice and clean. I’m wondering if it could be some sort of auto adjustment feature making adjustments on the fly and then implementing them. Would be interested to know if you or anyone else noticed this with these devices? I have another adjustment session next week so will ask the audi and see what he says.

I’m still struggling with voices. I came across another thread here where someone had downloaded a tone generator and identified some dead spots in his hearing, while wearing his aids. I did the same thing and set up a tone sweep from around 100Hz to 9500Hz and (if I did it right) I noticed a few dead spots in each ear where I could not hear the tones at all: Left ear - 2900-3600Hz, 4800-6300Hz, 6700-8300Hz, and 8500Hz up. In the right ear: 5100-6100Hz, 6600-7600Hz, 8300Hz up.

The poster got his audi to move the Speech Recovery feature down and a lot of his lost frequencies were improved. I don’t know much about this feature or how it works, but I’ll talk to my audi next week and see if moving it will help me recover some of these frequencies. Any input or insights from anyone else reading my thread would be welcomed.

Thanks,
Richard

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#47

Hi @richard.silver
Great to hear your experiences!

I agree on your hearing directional and distance, it works for me also better than with the Starkey Evolv 2400.

BT I agree gives seldomly also in my case some weard things. I have Android so cannot exactly compare. My impression was that I had to many connected devices all over the place and they did send messages so the HA’s get confused in connecting. Then the programm is changing it seems because of the sound… But I now have the BT’s off in devices I do not use at the same moment. And I must say everything is going well last time.

Sorry to hear that you still have some problems in voice recognition. It could have to do with the dead spots you are talking about. I hope and am almost sure the audi can taggle this for you. And I saw his post which was interesting.

One thing I must repeat I am very content with is the volume buttons I asked for on my Phonak Virto P90. I now discovered that if you are streaming you can balance the environmental sound with the streamed one. So if I would like to hear only music I can do that or make more mix between environment and music. And with the push buttons I can change at once if I like to.

Please keep us informed about your futher findings…
Have a nice day, Emile

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#48

Just my $0.02 on the CIC scenario. I am trialing the Oticon Own1 CIC and it has some good features, the Bluetooth phone streaming is great. The form factor is good (I have the 312 battery version which is my preference), but as a hearing aid, so far it is sub-par. After my first fit, people at my workplace begged me to go back to my old hearing aids. After my second fitting they are better, but far from OK. I used Starkey for many years and am considering the Evolve AI 2400 CIC, even though the antenna is apparently massive. I like the noise reduction on Starkey much better than these Oticon. In fact the Oticon’s sound very old-tech and the features are gimmicky.

PS. The Starkey’s now come with a pre-curved antenna. Not sure what effect that has on connectivity, if any.

#49

Really? I wasn’t aware of that - they must have actually listened to customer feedback and found most people don’t like to look like teletubbies with antennas sticking out of their ears :slight_smile: I’d imagine there may be very little to zero effect on the connectivity. I just checked the Starkey website and they now have pictures showing the pre-curved antennas. This will make a massive difference to people!

#50

I visited the audi and showed her the table I had made up listing the dead spots in each ear and explained how I discovered them (showed her the iOS app I downloaded) as well as the speech issues. I mentioned the Speech Recovery function and she said this is turned off by default, but she was happy to turn it on and see what difference it made. She did so and turned it to “strong” (I think that was the terminology on the setting).

It’s only been a few days but it does seem to have made a bit of a difference - not a huge amount though from what I can tell. I’ll keep at it and may adjust some of the settings within the app and see what happens.

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#51

Can you please recap what your test involved (the iOS app, etc)? This is a long post and I could not find it.

#52

Sure @grantb5

I came across a post where someone had said he had difficulty with speech (as we all do). His post was quite lengthy with the various (valuable) inputs from others and he mentioned he had downloaded a frequency generator from the app store and then set it to generate tones thru various ranges and then recorded where the dead spots were (I.e. where he couldn’t hear the tones) while wearing his HAs. I think this function is called a frequency sweep. Unfortunately he didn’t go into detail about exactly how he did it.

I thought I’d try the same thing (nothing to lose, right?!) and downloaded an iOS app called Function Generator. From memory it was about NZD$6 to enable the full functionality - a lot of the free ones will give very limited functions. This app allows you to select the left or right channel only, or both channels, and you can also set a start and end frequency which goes up in 20Hz increments.

I messed around with it and I really was flying blind, but I set it to start at 250Hz all the way thru to 9500Hz. I tried the left ear first and it went thru the various frequencies and I could hear the tones. At around 2900Hz the tone literally disappeared and I couldn’t hear it until it reached 3600Hz. Then it again disappeared at 4800Hz. I took a note of where the tones were not audible in each ear and did the test multiple times to make sure I hadn’t screwed it up. The results were almost identical each time so I figured I was doing something right. To be honest I really had no idea WTH I was doing but after running it several times and the tests being the same I figured I must be on the right track.

Take a note of where the tones are not audible and where it comes back. You may have a few dead spots where the tones are not audible at all (like I do).

Good luck and ask if you need help - as I said I was flying blind but happy to share or help as I’m sure others here will be.

Cheers.

#53

Just for my understanding:

Actually what would be the difference between the audiogramm and this app test. I mean in both cases you are looking at hearable tone frequencies and the deficits where you hear less or even nothing.

Is it ment as a controll after the hearing aids are programmed?
But is this not already controlled by programming the aids and maybe have an extra in ear test afterwards?

Another thing is how did you use the app, did you listen to the phone speakers or did you listen to the BT streaming of your HA’s. And so after the HA’s programming for your hearing tests you have a look where there are still uncontrolled/ not corrected frequencies?

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#54

So I’m confused. Why are there (large) antennas if they don’t have Bluetooth? Everything I can find on the Starkey site says CIC and IIC are only available in non-wireless (NW). Is this for their own proprietary 2.4GHz stuff? If that’s the case then the 900MHz solution is just as good, if not better.

#55

The non wireless do not communicate to each other nor do they communicate with other devices for streaming.