You’re stopping the Alta doing what it can by using a fixed formula like NAL. One of the main features of the Alta was the floating point linearity, which dynamically moves linear speech gain at different longer term ambient noise levels.
Without REM, it’s unlikely you’re getting an NL2 fitting. There was a report in Hearing Review last month that showed most manufacturers’ NL2 settings vary considerably from NL2 targets.
I checked with Oticon about this before and they told me Speech Guard is active even if you don’t use their proprietary formula. Also consider that Sensei Pro, their pediatric product, doesn’t contain VAC but still has Speech Guard.
I couldn’t hear any difference. I went back to VAC / Lively. Lively as opposed to Exact, Balanced, Gentle, or Steady.
Which is a good thing IMHO. But it also takes experience to know which manufacturers over do it and go in and make manual adjustments yourself. It’s also why all manufactures utilize some sort of acceptance manager to gradually build peoples tolerances up. I always err on the side of comfort to begin with. I never want people to walk out of my office with their aids on “edge” of being too loud. I’m not trying to give them some huge wow effect from the get go. We wake up in the morning and squint when we see bright light because our eyes have to adjust, the last 6-8hrs we haven’t seen light while we were sleeping. People walk around with aidable losses for 5yrs on average before they do something about it. It’s foolish to flip a switch and give them all this sound. I always warn people the first 2 weeks is what I call survival weeks. I expect you to come in and ask me to give you a little more, but I’m not going to force it down your throat from day one. Get use to hearing some thing through them, get used to physically having them on.
I have never in 15yrs heard a case to utilize DSLm[i/o] for adults as the results have been mixed at best. Again, we predominately use it on pediatric fittings.
In my case, NAL-NL2 was much better than the proprietary bernafon formula “bernafit”. But then again, bernafit is based upon nal-nl1, so maybe isn´t “up-to-date”. Maybe bernafon is working on a formula based on nal-nl2.
I like the NAL-NL2 fitting very much. It gives good amplification for soft sounds (where you need it) and doesn´t hurt your ears at loud sound (when everything is loud enough anyway).
Hi, Musician. I’ve been following your trialing odyssey in your various threads. When you trialed your Phonaks and Siemens did you have them tuned with NAL-NL2 also? Or did your audi use the manufacturers’ proprietary formulas? I am thinking of going back to the audi to ask her to try fitting my Phonaks with NAL-NL2. Do you (or anyone else) think that would be worth a try? Thanks.
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Hi,
with siemens I had both - first the proprietary formula, then nal-nl2, because the siemens technician thought that nal-nl2 might be better for music.
In case of the siemens, there was hard clipping with music, I´m sure. Couldn´t be avoided with any setting.
With phonak I don´t know, but it sounded (from the basic sound) very similar to the siemens with nal-nl2.
Note that nal-nl2 uses very much compression, more amplification of soft sounds, less amplification of louder sounds. This is perfect for my speech understanding.
For music, however, I have programs with less compression. Do you have an open fitting? What kind of music do you make? Maybe you can write me via pn, it gets very complicated here.
Regards,
Musician
I’ve been looking into the differenced between VAC+ and NL2. It’s interesting. Below are the maximum power output, targets, and compression ratios for my audiogram under each fitting rationale. Soft gain is significantly higher in my left ear under NL2, and compression ratios are higher. The thing that puzzles me most is the difference between the two rationales for MPO. Why is NL2’s MPO so much lower almost across the board than VAC+'s? And what would that mean in real terms?
| VAC+ | Right | Left | ||||||||||||||||||
| 250 | 500 | 750 | 1k | 1.5k | 2k | 3k | 4k | 6k | 8k | 250 | 500 | 750 | 1k | 1.5k | 2k | 3k | 4k | 6k | 8k | |
| MPO | 102 | 106 | 106 | 106 | 105 | 102 | 102 | 102 | 102 | 102 | 102 | 103 | 103 | 103 | 103 | 102 | 102 | 104 | 105 | 101 |
| Loud Gain | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 0 | -1 | -1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 2 | -1 | -1 | -1 |
| Mod. Gain | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 5 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 2 |
| Soft Gain | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 4 | 4 | 5 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 6 | 6 | 10 | 8 | 7 | 7 |
| Mod-Loud Compr. | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.2 | 1.2 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.1 | 1.1 | 1.3 | 1.3 | 1.3 |
| Soft-Mod. Compr. | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.1 | 1.1 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.1 | 1.0 | 1.3 | 1.2 | 1.2 | 1.2 |
| NL2 | Right | Left | ||||||||||||||||||
| 250 | 500 | 750 | 1k | 1.5k | 2k | 3k | 4k | 6k | 8k | 250 | 500 | 750 | 1k | 1.5k | 2k | 3k | 4k | 6k | 8k | |
| MPO | 77 | 87 | 92 | 92 | 93 | 90 | 93 | 97 | 96 | 91 | 80 | 89 | 95 | 95 | 96 | 93 | 98 | 105 | 105 | 96 |
| Loud Gain | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 1 | 0 | 0 |
| Mod. Gain | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 3 | 4 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 3 | 5 | 5 | 5 | 5 |
| Soft Gain | 0 | 0 | 1 | 2 | 3 | 5 | 8 | 8 | 7 | 7 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 3 | 6 | 9 | 16 | 16 | 15 | 15 |
| Mod-Loud Compr. | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.1 | 1.4 | 1.5 | 1.5 |
| Soft-Mod. Compr. | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.1 | 1.2 | 1.2 | 1.2 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.0 | 1.1 | 1.2 | 1.4 | 1.4 | 1.4 | 1.3 |
You have the chain compressor - limiter. The compressor reduces dynamic, but there still is dynamic. The limiter cuts off - everything above the mpo has the same loudness.
But if the compressor is compressing very much, you might not ever get to the area where the limiter limits.
Unless you set the mpo very (!) low, the other settings are more audible. If you set the amplification for loud sounds to “low”, your amplification stays under the mpo anyway, so the setting has no or little effect.
For me, the nal-nl2 is just perfect, because if loud sounds are amplified too much, I feel uncomfortable and understand less (!) than with a higher amplification.
Now the question: Is compression bad, especially for music? I´d say: No, but you have to be careful!
As for speech, it is said that the knee-point of compression should be above speech level, because speech is harder to understand when compressed.
What I do not understand: In most hearing-aid software, you set the amplification for 50 dB, 65 dB, 80 dB input levels. When I think about that, you should get two knee-points!
As for music, one must not forget that recorded music is always compressed. By using a microfone alone you get some (unwanted) compression. Even classical recordings are compressed a bit, because without compression one would always adjust the volume when listening in a quiet environment (like your living room).
Then people buy super-expensive valve-amps, and many think that they sound fantastic. But what do they do? They compress, and they add harmonic distortion.
What I am trying to say: Of course, compresion produces distortion, but it doesn´t necessarily sound bad. The distortion that really sounds bad is clipping.
One problem arises because of the open fitting of modern hearing aids. For frequencies below 250 Hz, you usually hear more “direct” sound than sound from the hearing aid. Below 100 Hz, you only hear direct sound, because the hearing aid cannot amplify that with an open fitting.
If you listen to dynamic music with bass in it, you will get the feeling that louder parts sound “dumb”, when your hearing aid is compressing a lot. This is because the low frequencies come through directly, whereas the high frequencies are amplified less at louder levels.
So what you can do is to reduce the overall amplification a bit and then reduce the compression just so far that the music you want to hear sounds good. This is a lenghty process, I had very much success by bringing some CDs to my audi.
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For me NAL-NL2 is very mild as compared to VAC+ which sounds louder to me. There is more speech clarity even with its lower loudness (as compared to VAC+) and I can watch TV without any streamer (Cant comprehend TV as clearly with VAC+)
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This is a very valuable and erudite conversation, from which I have learned a lot. It has prompted me to get my trusty audi to install a fourth program on my More3s based on NAL-NS2.
My objective is not to ultimately choose between VAC+ and NL2: VAC+ has already proved to be life-changing for me (yes - literally).
But I’m partially retired, and I spend many hours a day alone in our open-concept bungalow with tile floors throughout.
The tile makes it easier to clean up after 2 Newfoundland dogs and 5 cats, 4 of which are 16-year-olds with multiple health issues.
I asked for NL2 to provide me with an alternative to the VAC+ program that would give greater sensitivity to soft sounds occurring within a context of appliances humming and country sounds, incoming from the windows.
My audi only installed this today, so it’s not possible for me to report on its success, at this juncture.
I will report back after I have had sufficient time to habituate and truly discern the difference.
The VAC+ and NL2 programs are to be used in a rigorously-applied timetable: I won’t be toggling back and forth between the two. I’m pretty sure, however, that the NL2 paradigm is already letting me hear Daphne (Newf) sneakily licking at herself in the bedroom, creating fur tangles, because she has cleaned up a “Twice Eaten Hairball Delight” containing cat food to which she reacts alergically.
VAC+ will be turned on as soon as Mrs Spud gets home from her dog club meeting.
I would welcome comments on my VAC+/NAL-NL2 hotchpotch arrangement …
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I have VAC+ in my default program 1, Music in program 2, my DSL v5 Adult in program 3, and Speech In Noise in program 4.
At one time I also did try NAL-NL1 and NAL-NL2 in addition to VAC+, DSL v5 Adult, in each of the 4 programs. But for me, DSL v5 Adult is the rationale that gives me the sharpest edge when I need to focus on listening to speech in noise, so I stick with DSL v5. NAL-NL1 and NAL-NL2 do seem a little bit sharper than VAC+, but still not as sharp as DSL v5 Adult for my hearing loss.
One other thing you can try to have your audi set, if not already, is to tweak the Soft Sound Perception setting (see screenshot below). I like it set at the highest Detail value so I can hear my soft spoken daughter speaking better. It’s not as significantly sharper as DSL v5 Adult, but any little bit help while you’re in VAC+. This Sound Controls option is not available (grayed out) outside of VAC+.
I like the DSL v5 Adult rationale for sharper sound listening, but it gets tiresome after a while. I only use the program set with DSL v5a if I struggle to understand speech in noise while in the P1 VAC+. But when I don’t need it anymore, I revert back to the P1 VAC+ as my go-to setting for most other environments.
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Thank you, @Volusiano, for your helpful insight. I’m going to break up my reply:
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My P1 default program is VAC+, which is giving me yeoman’s service. I wanted to have access to NAL-NL2 for hearing my wife (who’s also soft spoken), and for sharpening the sound of a sick or convulsed animal, elsewhere in the house [one of my Newfs has idiopathic epilepsy - he’s very well-controlled, but still has the occasional seizure];
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My P2 for playing music. It sounds really good to my ears, and allows me to once again enjoy the sounds of my fine instruments and tube amps;
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I use my P3 telecoil program for crystal clear convos with my pharmacist and my vet clinic staff (one day I’ll have to rant about how people who know I’m severely HOH seem to NOT EVEN TRY to speak clearly to me over the phone. At least that’s my perception.) I can’t afford to misconstrue critical health care information, for my sake, as well as for my furbabies. For me, the telecoil setting has earned a permanent berth in my program menu;
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P4 now makes NAL-NA2 sharpness available to me, when I find myself in a situation where my VAC+ just isn’t cutting the mustard. I’m pretty sure that my musician’s ear would grow quickly tired of any thing sharper than what I get with NAL-NL2. I’ve already found my new P4 to be useful, even though I have only had P4 for less than 24h.
This very satisfactory (for me) getup was inspired by your prior posts, and I’m grateful to you for taking the time to share your considerable knowledge with such elegance.
@Volusiano: This quote captures exactly my motivation for wanting access to NAL-NL2, notwithstanding my high level of satisfaction with VAC+.
I’m hoping that using the NAL rationale for a few well-defined hours a day won’t screw up my brain’s response to VAC+.
[PS: @cvkemp: Chuck - the NAL-NS2 is great for bird songs and squirrel chitter! FYI]
Does anyone know why DSL v5 adult doesn’t give you any extra low frequency gain in the lows when on a streaming program or even on my Roger program?
NAL 1 gives me extra low frequency gain on my right side as I have a vent, when streaming or in my Roger program as you loose low frequency gain through the vent.
DSLAdult is principally designed for adult presbyacusis rehabilitation and the restoration of high fricatives and plosives. It’s based on the argument that there’s more speech intelligibility per octave 2-6KHz than the octaves below. It also originates from a time before frequency compression/shaping was a thing.
So, if you have ‘normal’ sloping presbyacusis the bias to more HF gain increased intelligibility, but certainly made the instrument sound more tinny. It’s the crystallisation of the classic trade off of sharpness over ‘warmth’/ sound quality. Though it also has the positive effect of diminishing the upward spread of masking.
If you have a flatter loss and a preference for a decent bass signal; then it probably isn’t the prescription for you.
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What @Um_bongo said about the DSL 5.0 Adult is very in line with how it sounds like to me when I tried it out compared to VAC+. It does sound much sharper to me and seems to help me more with speech in noisy situations. But in normal situations for me, the sharpness is kind of tiring so I prefer to use VAC+ normally if I’m not challenged by speech in noise.