Does Hearing Loss affect Harmony Perception?

Hearing Loss
#21

I’m a jazz guitarist with significant high frequency loss as you can see from my audiogram. I have excellent pitch discrimination in my range and my guitars always sounded spot on.

Yesterday I received my first ever pair of hearing aids, the Costco KS8’s. The technician told me there’s only one program for the KS8 and he dialed it down to allow me to acclimate over time. When I picked up my guitar last evening it produced a warbling sound similar to having 3 strings tuned at slightly different pitches plucked simultaneously. I doubt that increasing the volume and high frequencies will correct this. As a musician, it’s completely intolerable.

From reading the forum here, it seems the KS8’s do come with more than one program and others have mentioned a music program which I can’t find. Nothing is available from my two apps for my Android phone, in fact one app hardly works and the other can only adjust volume, not tone or directionality. I think this is a phone compatibility issue; I have the Nexus 5x and it’s not listed as a supported phone. I can live with this or get a more compatible phone, but if pitch shifting in music can’t be corrected, it gets returned ASAP. Maybe I have to “upgrade” to the ReSound Forte?

#22

Have them turn off the feedback manager on the hearing aid and that should help.

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#23

My KS8s have six programs available. My musical background was harmony singing (barbershop quartet). I have not had good luck with harmony so far, but I am considering having my Costco audiologist try some things in one of the other programs.

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#24

My take is that you won’t be able to “pitch shift” with any hearing aids.

  1. The KS8s do have music programs available, but they need to be set up with by the technician. There are actually 3: one for listening to live music, one for playing music, and one for listening to recorded music. It’s common for techs to just want to set up one program initially as they want to encourage using it for everything, but clearly that’s not going to work for you.

Regarding apps. One works via bluetoot and I would expect an older Android phone would not support. What version of Android does it use? If it’s 4.4 or better, it should work with Smart Remote which uses high frequency sounds. Should give you simple bass/treble control and directional control. If you get a new phone, iPhone would be ideal

I suspect whether you’re able to fix the pitch shifting will have more to do with fitter than aids. One thing causing the problem could be is that before you weren’t hearing the higher frequencies at all. I’m guessing they’re mainly overtones, but now you can hear them and your ears likely distort those pitches. (See Neville’s earlier post) One solution might be turning down the highs on the music program (and certainly not using frequency lowering in the music program)

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#25

No. I’ve sung (lead & harmony) and played music (guitar, mandolin, Dobro, pedal steel guitar, bass) for well over 50 years, much of that professionally. I grew up in church and school choirs, played rock, acoustic solo pop/folk, bluegrass, blues, and country as a solo acoustic act, duo/trio acoustic, full bands both acoustic and electric.

I’ve worn hearing aids for the past 18 years.

While I’ve had to work out some bugs and deal with the techs to disable a lot of the active workings of the hearing aids to make them work so I could perform or listen to music, once I did that there has been no problem. Pitch was never a problem anyway.

I love harmony, either singing it or having it behind me while I sing lead. Consequently, anything interfering with that would stand out like a sore thumb to me.

It could be active functions of your aids are messing with music to the extent where it doesn’t sound “right” and you are perceiving that as off key.

With my newer BTE aids (I’ve worn CIC most of my time with ha) on the “normal” (i.e. daily speech) setting I noticed listening to a favorite band on the car CD player that the steel guitar virtually disappeared. I can only suppose that the hearing aid maker is not a country music fan. :slight_smile:

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#26

The ReSound Forte is supposed to be similar to the ReSound LiNX 3D, which I said above is used by one of my audiologist’s other clients who is a guitar player. But according to some sources, the Forte is “locked” so it can be programmed only by Costco, not an independent audiologist. That could come back to bite you, if your Costco doesn’t have a fitter with the experience to work with musicians.

The ReSound Smart 3D app may also be a problem for you on Android. I found it so buggy as to be nearly useless even on a supported phone, a Samsung Galaxy S7. I kept the ReSound hearing aids and replaced the phone with an iPhone.

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#27

Volusiano, your idea to have them turn off the feedback manager sounds like the first thing to try out. Thanks. I’m assuming pitch shifting is their way of reducing feedback.

#28

I’m just now understanding that when people say they have 6 programs available, they mean they have six slots for programs available that may or may not be populated. How can I be so slow?

#29

I’m completely okay with pitch shifting in daily activities or general tv, but not for music.

My tech insisted that there was only one program available so I will confront him this Sunday with your information of 3 programs available for live, playing, and recorded music. Maybe he just doesn’t know about it.

He was very concerned about me acclimating to the new sounds but one day later they sound fine, other than the damnable pitch shifting when I play guitar. If he can fix the pitch shifting or give me the three music programs, I’ll keep the KS8. I’m thinking that I may ask him to crank the aids up to their intended levels and let me adjust to them in my own way too. Right now it’s sort of hard to know if they’re on or not - the best way for me to know is the altered sound of my own voice.

My phone is a Nexus 5x using Android 8.1.0. The problem with the phone is not its OS, but its chip set which in likelihood doesn’t support BTle. The tech recommended the Smart Direct app, but it doesn’t do anything. I installed the older Smart Remote, what you recommended, and it will adjust the volume, but it has no functioning tone control or mic directionality. Again, I suspect I’ll need a new phone.

I don’t think my instruments produce these warbling effects on their own. In electric musical instrument amplification there’s a well known effect called “chorus” which takes the plain input signal, copies and frequency shifts it a few times so that the multiple signals are a few hertz off, which mimics a chorus of voices or say stringed instruments who are always a little off from each other. This is exactly the effect I’m getting with the KS8’s, except they’re off by way more than a few hertz.

#30

Since you probably know guitar amps, you probably know what a chorus pedal or effect is. Imagine cranking one way up so it sounds alien, that’s what I’m experience. It’s definitely a pitch problem.

#31

I’m not ready to get a new phone while my aids are suspect. I have an appt this Sunday to have the pitch shifting removed from one program which will determine whether or not I will keep the KS8’s. Moving to different HA’s is an option, but one I’ll have to consider. I function really well with my unaided hearing so I don’t feel any urgency to drop $3k on aids that aren’t absolutely necessary - $1600 for KS8’s was an OK luxury expense :slight_smile:

#32

Strange with your phone. I would think if it would pair with either app via BT or high pitched sounds that it would have full functionality of the app. Yes, aids have capability of 6 programs total. When one clicks on the Music option, 3 options present themselves. Good luck!

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#33

The Nexus 5x is not BTle so it can’t communicate that way. It can connect acoustically at pitches beyond my reach. I can make some adjustments, but not all the adjustments the apps say I can. Glad to know about the 3 music programs. Now I just have to convince my tech that they exist :slight_smile:

#34

Have you had the active parts turned off on any memory/channels?

That is a must for music. You don’t want compression and you don’t want the computer trying to decide for you what parts you do and don’t want to hear.

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#35

I would if I could. To the best of my knowledge there’s only the automatic program and nothing else. I can’t access tone, directionality, or anything but volume.

Or maybe you’re suggesting that I should ask the tech at Costco to set this up? If so, then yes, that’s exactly what I plan to do AND install the three music programs MDB mentioned.

Hopefully something will work. If not, the KS8’s go back.

#36

That is exactly what I have done with the hi HealthInnovations BTE Power Plus aids I recently got through Medicare. I got the right ear first and went back & forth several times to see if the tech could create a program usable to me. She’d keep the “normal” channel/memory one with the active crap, then experiment with the slight different parameters I’d suggest on channel/memories 2, 3, and 4. Once I decided this brand/model of aid could be made usable for me, I ordered the left ear, too, with the programs set up similarly, given the slight difference in my chart, left vs right. We’re almost there and when I decide which of the 3 “music” programs is best for live performance, we’ll set up the aid so 1 & 3 are “normal” and 2 & 4 are my preferred “music” settings. That way I’m only one click away from either speech or music. The multitude of program choices is unnecessary BS in my opinion.

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#37

I hope I’m not to late to share my perspective. I just posted this new thread:

It lays out my concerns, i.e., that using HAs could simply result in further mid-range hearing loss due to neuroplastic adaptation to reduce the dissonance.

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