Close to despair after months of audiologists (note: PLURAL!) attempting recovery of music and speech

Hearing Aids
#137

Hi, again…

It was (and still is; we’re not fully there yet) a very complex tweaking of several of the Beltone HearMax app segments, as well as an addition of one ("Ultra Focus) not standardly there, but replacing “Wind Noise”.

The music accuracy part was mostly a complex tweak of compression time (linear or other approaches) and severity, signal-noise ratio (SNR) and likely some other tweaks I forget (discussed as they were happening, but I wasn’t taking notes).

The speech was mostly shaping of what got amplified to what extent. The "ultra focus’ replaced the “windy” protection, as I no longer live on a sailboat. As well, there are two different (dunno why as they appear the same whenever I’ve used it/them) sections for the remote mic “MyPalPro” A or C; they appear to function the same way, though I suppose one mic may not have the tabletop or the lavalier function (one or the other missing; speculation, so I could be mistaken).

My particular aids have the typical bluetooth functionality, and, significantly, when functioning in Bluetooth, there are no intonation issues. And, my expectation, after all this time, is that my musical intonation issues are related to percussive sounds, as when there’s an orchestra (such as the Cantata performance) over the piano, masking the percussive sound waves, there isn’t an intonation issue. That premise was reinforced in a segment where it was just piano accompaniment and minimal other instruments, with a xylophone which also was slightly off-pitch, to my surprise - but on reflection confirmed my assessment of my intonation difficulties’ sources.

So, to your question, it’s not yet finished, but, in general, I believe it to be a complex gain setting, enhanced by tweaking the individual sub-programs (everything other than the “all around” main program) AND their button-activated alterations.

E.g.:
All around: Noise filter and Speech clarity
UltraFocus: same
Restaurant: Noise filter, Speech focus and Hear everyone
Music: Bass boost and Treble boost
Both MyPalPro: same as music.

My current log (a week’s worth) runs to 2 pages, about half of which is the regular Sunday church service in which I tested EACH subsection (main, plus subsets of the above) during piano-inclusive stuff, and various speech-related periods, either amplified or acoustic examples, both in large-group listening or individual back-and-forth conversations.

I wrote to my audiologist before last week’s, and again yesterday for today’s, adjustment, later this afternoon, a summary of the significant findings. From those (and some minor questions for clarity), she did the various wizardry with the components of the app.

Eventually, it’s my presumption that we’ll arrive at an All-Around status which will have me understanding speech clearly, and perhaps music without the atonality generated by the tweaks in the linear/compression adjustments. At that point I’ll be freed from my dependence on my phone, as, other than unusual circumstance, I’ll be able to merely use the buttons on the aids to move from one program to another without the need for fine tuning.

I hope that’s informative; please come back again if not.

#138

Thank you for taking the time to reply.
Not knowing the Bernafon software I’m not sure if you have discovered a brilliant audi or one prepared to do trial and error.
From a diy point of view I don’t think I could reproduce that in Phonak Target!.
Pleased you are nearly there, I’ve followed your thread from the start and understand your frustration.

#139

I had a quick lookup, and Phonak Target was, I believe, what my audiologist there used.

Unfortunately for us (he cuz he made nothing from me, and me cuz I didn’t solve the remaining minor issues and get a working set), Phonak declined to further extend the trial period. But watching his screen as he adjusted my aids, I believe he could have gotten to my nirvana.

I just got back from this week’s adjustment of the Beltones, and learned more about the app I’ve been using. My audiologist, using my summaries (the entire log is mostly chaff in terms of stuff which is meaningful to my specific needs, so I’d sent her the significant events regarding my week’s experience with the previous setting), went through EACH of the 4 major adjusting/environmental parts (All-Around, Ultra Focus, Restaurant, Music).

So, it’s far more than mere tweaking of amplifications. For example, my “music” setting is as linear as the software will allow - meaning there’s a very long compression period, which minimizes clipping (the issue with the intonation irregularity in the usual setup) and therefore minimally affects the intonation I hear from a percussive instrument with specific pitches (piano, xylophone, chimes, e.g.). And, for my being able to hear myself when I sing in a group (so that the others don’t drown me out), adjustment of the high and low frequencies, and, perhaps, some mucking about with the vent in my molds. At your level of loss, likely (if you’re not already there), molds would be a significant step up from domes, albeit likely that domes could be pushed further than the usual mold shape, bringing the receiver output closer to your eardrum.

In my case, my canals are large, and the mold is further enhancing that seal even though they don’t penetrate all that far by comparison to my previous domes. If you’ve followed the entire thread, you know that the molds are castoffs from Sam’s due to their inability to retain their receivers. I’ve not had any such issue with the Beltone receivers, despite their being square vs rectangular in cross section and thus smaller. My audiologist also put in a plug with a tiny vent in the mold vents; we may revisit that in my ‘own-voice’ issues, but it also minimizes the potential for feedback (no sound is getting out).

But, for now, having just returned home, and in the All-Around, I’m a bit dismayed at my wife’s speech clarity. On the other hand, in all of last week’s testing, my best speech recognition was in the Ultra Focus program, with the Speech Clarity enabler. So before I get nervous about the speech clarity, I’m going to try the UF/SC pair.

As I typed that she walked by, and I made the change; my voice is tinny, and hers isn’t all that clear, so we may not have enhanced speech much. A week of working the programs will tell more of the story…

And, I won’t be able to find out about the intonation tweaks until Sunday; no choir practice (we’re in South FL, which is a very seasonal population, so choir is out until the fall), and no easy access to someone who plays a piano for testing that part.

I hope this is helpful in some way; if you’re facing anything similar to what I was, it’s a long struggle. But based on how we (the Phonak guy and I) were progressing, particularly if you have the ability to muck around in it yourself, I’d expect there’s hope for your situation…

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#140

Thanks for the reply. Sorry I mixed up Beltone with Bernafon! As an aside Costco sell Jabra aids which is part of GN that I believe makes Beltone, may be a consideration for the future.
The music solutions fits what most members on here have found.
As for me I am going private after many years of nhs due to long waiting lists. Here in UK Boots the chemist have hearing centres partly owned by Sonova. They offer a reasonable service but are also very busy after covid.
I do wear moulds and I’m going to try soft silicon. I’m sure my audiogram will be worse than the one on my profile so likely will need Up this time.

#141

I have soft moulds but had two instances of hard moulds along the way; Miracle Ear and Phonak’s were both hard.

I dunno for sure, but I speculate that the soft moulds give more tolerance for movement (my jaw movement of any sort impacts my ear canal; it’s what caused the Sam’s soft molds that I snitched to eject their receivers), as well as perhaps being slightly more comfortable.

As to NHS, social media has many arguments about “free” health care, but you’re similar to my MIL, RIP, who spent a VERY large pile on private insurance whilst living in UK (married a Brit, expatriated in '61, lived there for over 40 years before returning to the US) so as to have access to better and faster care. Her ears got bad enough in the period she lived near us that her RICs became Starkey BTE and went through the 50/60/70 receivers before going to an audio-tube BTE. Her RICs became over-the-ear and full moulds, as she was profoundly deaf.

Now that I’ve had the most recent tweaks, I’m finding the voice side not quite as good as it was. It remains to be seen whether or not my music metric (both incoming and own-voice) has been met, which won’t happen until Sunday. Meanwhile, dinner out with friends will be a good test for the voice part.

Good luck with your continued search, and please let us know how the private sector works out for you. In the case of wait times, my change of offices was due to just that - and that the one I’m using now has a VERY experienced and skilled software manipulator. As well, she was allowed to continue to be a multiline provider, so she has a very broad experience with how things work in general (vs Beltone specific).

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#142

I believe I’m reasonably up to speed at the moment, but others following this thread due to similar challenges with music accuracy might enjoy this:

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#143

Thanks for posting his here!

It’s been difficult setting up my Paradise P90 hearing aids. I’ve finally made some progress.

It would be nice to hear music again!

DaveL

#144

I used to be an active Barbershopper (close 4-part harmony for men). Living and cruising on a boat meant that despite my attempts (even in areas with hundreds of boats listening to the morning net - a VHF radio news-and-weather-and-community broadcast) to find others with whom to sing I was unsuccessful; I’ve been inactive for the last nearly-20 years.

However, visiting grandchildren this week, in the area where I was an active Barbershopper for many years, I went to a chapter (group of guys as a chorus and then quartetting in 4s) meeting.

I couldn’t hear the other notes or myself, to match, despite mucking around in settings in the Beltone HearMax app. Apparently my only hope is singing in the middle of single-note (like a large bass section in a choir) section. I couldn’t hear harmony, even listening (vs singing), let alone trying to match tones for harmony. I’ll wait until I’m home and listen to some BBShop on headphones for confirmation, but it’s not promising.

Color me depressed.

Sigh…

#145

From the promo info on my aids:

Microphone in ear design

Parent company GN Hearing has launched Microphone & Receiver-In-Ear (M&RIE) simultaneously in both ReSound and Beltone products. M&RIE (pronounced Marie) is essentially the inclusion of a microphone on the speaker unit that sits deep inside the ear canal. The microphone is directed toward the outside of the ear, and picks up sound that enters the ear naturally, so that the hearing aid can understand the natural resonance of the ear (and ear canal). In theory, this means the hearing aid can more naturally reproduce the natural sound of the wearer’s ear.

A recent press release from Beltone described the benefits of the new M&RIE system:

M&RIE provides a naturally immersive hearing experience with greater depth and sound localization while significantly reducing wind noise. The most immediate way people will notice the breakthrough is the sound of their own voice."

Is there any experience here to encourage my supplier to switch recievers from the current speaker-only version, particularly since my soft molds would mean that the mike would not be in my canal?

Thanks…

L8R

Skip, struggling

#146

Hi, sorry to hear you’re still having problems.
Do some searching on here, there is a good amount of posts on mire, bit of a love hate issue.

#147

You can read through the posts here.

https://forum.hearingtracker.com/search?q=Resound%20M&RIE

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#148

I’ve got soft molds; the receiver isn’t deep in my ear as a result. As seen further upthread, these are snitches from Sam’s after their similarly shaped (theM&RIE is wider at the top than my current receivers, which remain in place, where the Sam’s rectangular ones migrated out) receivers wouldn’t stay put.

Will M&RIE work with molds? My current amplification - I believe - won’t allow soft domes without feedback. I usually have to fiddle with them as I insert them, and occasionally during the day, sometimes, to defeat the feedback, as it is…

#149

This suggests it’s fine:
https://forum.hearingtracker.com/t/resound-m-rie-receivers-level-of-loss-suitability/63413

#150

My molds had to be remade to accommodate the larger size of the M&RIE receivers. I have Jabras, another ReSound brand. I tried them but every sound seemed fuzzy. They may have been defective, and I may try them again. I may not, because music that used to be familiar to me sounds familiar again. (I was a music-listener, though, not a music-maker.) That makes me hypothesize that I’ll hear unfamiliar music as it’s intended to be heard. But listening is different from making music.

The M&RIE molds can apparently be used with standard receivers.

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#151

How is it going user424?

I have been following your thread. I have learned lots.

I deeply sympathize with your struggles. And your energy and resilience to try get what is right for you is inspiring. I’m trying to build up energy myself to have another go with getting hearing aids. All attempts so far (over the years in think 5 attempts) has resulted in hearing aids that actually make me hear worse; in very few settings have my aids been beneficial. Very frustrating and energy draining… My main desire is to properly hear people talk, socially and in a work environment, meetings etc. My latest attempt was 7 years ago with Siemens Binax 7bx

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#152

Two things:
Speech is the hobgoblin (other than for participating musicians, a very small subset of hearing-challenged folk) of every hearing specialist. So, I’m not surprised at your challenges.
7 years is an eternity in hearing aids. The technology has changed dramatically in that time. As a result I expect that your potentials are much enhanced from your last attempt.

Both of those things, however, are the prisoner of the audiology tweaks. Without a detailed and accurate (my many didn’t match, so their accuracy are called into question) audiometry, and, absolutely critically, IMHO (in my humble opinion in case you hadn’t seen that before), the skill and perseverance of the audiologist who tunes your aids. If that part happens to be you, avail yourself of the wisdom here, because, after all this time, and in particular, even with my much-more-skilled current audiologist, it’s only now that I’m approaching “Good-Excellent” ratings on my aids and app, and even at that, mostly I have to tweak, through the app, the speech-relevant settings - meaning I’m tethered to my phone.

I have hopes that I’ll get to the point where I no longer have to make those tweaks, and can merely make the program segments (all around, ultra focus, restaurant and music) do their thing at a neutral setting, volume up/down being the only change once into a segment. But we’re not there yet.

So, get whatever aids you think best, with whatever ear-end (power or closed dome to start, cuz I doubt molds could be returned) you have available, and plan on very frequent tweaking of the audiometry curve to get your solution.

Best wishes and best of luck.

2 Likes
#153

As this is a very long thread, I’ll try to keep it short (not necessarily sweet, as seen in the link, later):

My speech comprehension (before any experience post this afternoon’s adjustment) has inched its way to good-excellent, in a large variety of settings, other than in noisy restaurants. It MAY be that I can get around that in small groups (we’re having our Wednesday pizza, this time with 2 couples tonight; it will be a good test) by using my MyPalPro microphone set in the middle of the table.

My music-to-my-brain is fair-good, where it was previously routinely discordant (compression issue presumed) Today’s tweaks MAY improve that to all good or good-excellent as well.

As to my Barbershop experience, I believe it was a quality/accuracy, not tonality issue, in that when I got home, I used a CD of a national champion quartet to prove that I could, indeed, hear the harmonies, and the overtones, if they were actually there :relaxed: Unfortunately, to achieve that required some banging around in my HearMax, so my audiologist mucked around to see if we could make the fuzzy lyrics (tonality and harmonies were there; lyrics virtually incomprehensible) go away while still retaining the musicality. I won’t have an decision on that until I listen to the CD again. I also have an opportunity to visit that same chorus when I’m off touring grandchildren shortly, and will try again.

The “own voice” (hearing myself when singing) was also tweaked, and also won’t have any decision until Sunday.

But, I’m encouraged, in general. Good thing, too, as it’s a 2+ hour round trip to this audiologist, who didn’t sell me the current set of aids, leading to “The Beltone Advanced Care Plan” - which will cost me $250 a year if I decide to continue. As I’m moving in less than a year, and travel a fair amount (e.g., July 6 I leave for a 6-week swing among grandchildren), that’s not encouraging. Nor is the thought of returning to the place these Beltone Imagine 17s were purchased for further adjustment, as my weekly (other than travelus interruptus) trips were suggested as THAT audiologist had clearly (and recognized it as such) topped out his level of competence.

So, further news as I know it. In the meantime, browse over to Beltone practice(s) and see the detail if it’s of interest.

I’m only hopeful (early days, that last appointment having been mere hours ago).

Sigh…

3 Likes
#154

And the hits keep coming…

My last adjustment started with my speech clarity at Good-Excellent on all settings; music needed some help.

In the process, my speech shit the bed.

And the vaunted Belcare can’t be used because "In order to use remote care, we would have had to set that up in-person. It is not something automatically defaulted to the hearing aids, especially since we are not your original office of purchase. We can activate remote fine-tuning services in our software, but it has to be done initially with the hearing aids physically paired to the computer. It’s due to privacy consent purposes, email set-up on your end, and you would also have to be assigned as a patient to our cloud office location. "

So, no data anywhere else other than local computer, again/still, and if I wanted to purchase something and was nowhere near another office, it’s sorry-charlie, gotta come to the office and set it up in advance.

And I leave tomorrow at oh-dark-30 for a 5-week grandkids sweep during which I’ll likely be effectively deaf to them, now. And so far adults are marginal; I’d rate it at fair-poor.

Sigh.

#155

Update: Generally very positive.

I got new molds, and had been working nearly weekly with the fantastic audiologist referred to me by my seller, as seen in the very extensive thread above, since the last report. Along the way, as was the case last year in November, I had a receiver shit the bed a few days ago, on a weekend, meaning I couldn’t get another until now.

I’ll save you all the intermediate steps we’ve taken over the last few months to show you my note to my audiologist for my appointment later today:

I’m coming with one operational ear. Going forward, given that this is now twice in my 20 months of operation, I believe I need to have spares for the times I’m not in range of an office, or during closed days/hours. Can we accomplish that? I’d keep them in a ziploc until needed, and pray that I never opened it !

If that dings your budget (vs being a consumable provided by your owner or Beltone), but is otherwise within the service metrics, I’ll get them from the Vero office.

For today’s twiddles, given that we went straight ahead due to the major change with the new molds (which are awesome; they’re very tight, and only momentarily uncomfortable on insertion, but NO feedback), here’s my experiences that could use attention:

The deeper receiver channel means that the wax guards may never need changing. On the other hand, I wonder how I should, if they get wax in them, clean the channels. As well, I’ll pay attention to how the dead receiver comes out; I presume that would be how I’d change the wax guard, but might be involved in cleaning the channel; I note that there’s a closure over the wire/receiver interface which presumably would mean some force needed to remove it - and which might not be friendly to the wire.

My sound metrics are still on the racetrack, but gaining on the goonies. Thursday (28th) I had my meeting with our Music Director, where we tried some hymns I’d never seen before, so couldn’t rely on ‘muscle memory’ - I had to read, and hit the notes, based on the piano I was hearing. It was a very mixed bag. In the MU program it was fair; I could pick up the piano tonality almost purely (not much distortion). However, I couldn’t hear myself well. The analysis on that, and my general challenges during services, is that I might be sitting too close (we sit front and center, usually), and that the sound level there overwhelms my voice, so I should sit ~2/3 of the way back. Unfortunately, I had only one operational ear, and the entirety of the service was challenging Sunday; more on that below. But, back to the trial/error testing, the piano tone was purest in the MU program. My own-voice was best in the MPP.

So, next up is the MPP experience. I had the opportunity for several tests of the microphone in small groups, both before and after the current molds. Generally, in a restaurant, I’ve squelched the ‘surroundings’ to good effect. Also generally, restaurants are reliant on placement. In a booth, with the mic centered on the wall, it’s generally excellent, or at least good. In an open table against a wall, it’s marginally good, though orders of magnitude better than without, and on the first use, it was centered, which is approximate to an open table: On an open table, in the center, it’s at best good, but mostly fair. In a home setting, without any ambient noise, it’s good to excellent. I’ve not tried fiddling with the mic +/- volume; I can do that next. Do you know if the mic reverts to a ‘middle’ position when it’s turned off, or if it stays where it was last used?

Speech is generally better with the new molds, regardless of the settings, but I’m still finding the UF/SC setting the best. That said, I don’t have to resort to that all the time, and in general, it’s good enough that I rarely do daily dissections (notes of what happened during the day) as I go along as I did in the early days. That said, Lydia remains a challenge; I find myself bumping the volume frequently, even in close-proximity settings. That’s disconcerting, as she’s got a short fuse and doesn’t deal with my lack-of-acuity well. Any twiddles you can think of, short of mounting the MPP on her permanently are welcomed (note that doing that in our cockpit, with her being sotto voce for fear that some neighboring boat might hear her, worked well).

So, I’m very encouraged. For those who followed this from the beginning, I reiterate that it’s the audiologist, not the gear. If this is your first read, I apologize for the length, but it shows that some journeys have to be long to arrive where you want.

Generally, I expect that further gentle tweaks will have me working in all respects. But my experiences may be useful for those struggling with either voice or music clarity or accuracy.

L8R, y’all!

Skip, encouraged

#156

I’m so pleased you’re on the right path.

I remember your first post. Congratulations! Cherish the person that set up your hearing aid well.

DaveL
Toronto