I am not new to HAs, been wearing one since 1975. Many different brands fitted by a number of different audis over a 45 year period. I was told a few months ago by two different audis that they could not fit me with the newer RIC with Bluetooth capabilities. Enter Costco, a wonderful experience. The audi at Costco did a through hearing test and fitted me with KS8 and KS9 aids and allowed me time to walk around the store and try them out. I was impressed. Purchased the KS8’s, they work like a charm with my iPhone. I am curious, why other Bluetooth devices do not recognize the hearing aids. Is there a special frequency or something ?
Any help in understanding how the Bluetooth works for hearing aids would be appreciated.
Thank you.
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The Bluetooth protocol that connects them with iPhone is called BLE (bluetooth low energy) and it is different than standard bluetooth. It is a specific protocol developed by apple and the hearing aid manufacturers. It currently only works with MFi and cannot connect to regular bluetooth.
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My understanding is Android phones with BLE soon, any verify this?
There are a couple of things that fit that description. 1) Google came out with the ASHA standard for LE BT. Currently only a Resound and (I think) a Starkey hearing aid support it and only the Pixel 3 and 4 series phones and very current Samsung phones support it. 2) There is a new low energy codec that has great promise and will be supported by Bluetooth 5.2. No current products support this. Best guess I’ve heard is over a year or more away.
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If you have a Pixel 4 phone, it supports the Android version of MFi, which is called ASHA. When or if other android phones will support ASHA is to be determined.
ASHA and MFi were developed because the Bluetooth core specifications don’t support streaming audio. BT 5.2, which was ratified in December 2019 finally defines streaming audio, but it could easily be a couple of years before it’s available to the public. Bluetooth 5.1 is dated January 2019 and it’s not supported in currently available phones.
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Thank you all for replaying. I was curious why my computer and vehicle with Bluetooth would not recognize my new hearing aids. I will study up on the BLE, Bluetooth low energy. Looking forward to learning so much more from this forum. To those who take the time to reply to others questions, please note you are appreciated. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
Cheers,
Walt
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Hopefully this link works, but in general Pixel 3 and 4 series support ASHA and Samsung Galaxy phones from S9 on do too. https://www.resound.com/en-us/help/compatibility#androiddevice
The Galaxy Note 10 Lite supports BT 5.1 Galaxy Note 10 Lite to have location-tracking Bluetooth 5.1 S Pen - SamMobile
BT 5.2 support is likely a year or more away.
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I put this together this morning. It probably contains factual errors (which I’m sure people will report). If enough people think it’s useful I’ll maintain it. Consider this version .9.
Important: Do NOT rely on the compatibility information below to make a purchase. It comes from your fellow users, who occasionally get things wrong. Check each model for yourself. Due diligence!
MFI
Radio: Low Energy
Proprietary: Yes
Useage: Audio streaming only (use microphone in phone for voice calls).
Phone: iphone only (see Notes)
Hearing Aids: Any aid designated ‘mfi’.
Notes: Many ‘mfi’ aids can stream from Android phones through
an intermediate device. The device is brand/model specific and
the connection between intermediate device and aids is proprietary.
These devices usually have microphones and enable true hands-free
calling.
ASHA
Radio: Low Energy
Proprietary: No, it’s an open (but not ‘official’) standard
Useage: Audio streaming only (use microphone in phone for voice calls).
Phone: Pixel 3/4, Samsung S10, S9
Hearing Aids: Various late model GE Resound, possibly Starkey Livio
BLUETOOTH CLASSIC
Radio: Classic (original Bluetooth)
Proprietary: No
Useage: Audio streaming, phone calls through microphone in aids
Phone: Any modern smartphone, any computer or TV with Bluetooth
Hearing Aids: Various late model Phonak, Unitron
Notes: Classic Bluetooth transmits one audio stream which is processed
by one of the aids into two channels. One channel is transmitted by
that aid to the other.
Phone calls use hfp (hands free profile). The microphone in one of the aids picks up the
user’s voice, enabling hands-free communication.
Power useage is higher than low-energy protocols. Best suited to
rechargeable batteries.
Latency may be an issue in some situations.
LE AUDIO (in development. NO PRODUCT at this point in time)
Radio: Low Energy
Proprietary: No
Useage: Audio streaming, voice calls, possibly new functionality for hearing aids
associated with a new hearing aid protocol (unknown at this point).
Phone: We believe that new hardware will be required.
Hearing Aids: We believe that new hardware will be required.
Notes: The specification is intended to be released progressively in first half of
this year. First hardware is expected early 2021.
Communication will be full-duplex (simultaneous)
Improved audio quality is expected with LC3 codec.
Higher range of frequencies.
Low latency.
Independent but synchronised stream to each aid. No need for one aid to
transmit to the other. Better stereo imaging and quality.
New useage cases: audio sharing and broadcast audio
Introduction should see generic accessories that are interoperable
between brands.
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Thanks for going to the effort to put this together.Comments and questions:
- At least according to Resound, Samsung S9 works and I expect newly released S20 also works
2)Under ASHA you include Unitron. Is that a typo or do you have a source? If it’s true, does the same aid support ASHA and BT classic? That would surprise me
So I am pretty sure that RF wise these are all Bluetooth Low Energy save what you refer to as “classic”…
Senior moment. I had Unitron pegged in my mind as a secondary brand to someone. I had the wrong ‘someone’- Resound, should have been Phonak. I’ll fix it up in the morning.
Yes, they are. ‘Classic’ is now the official nomenclature.
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Great overview. LE Audio evaluation platform is on its way [click] Only first part of article is in Danish.
I think one of the big selling points of the KS9s are that they are Bluetooth compatible with more devices than the KS8s. The KS8s are Rexton Signia Pure. The KS9s are the new Phonak Audeo Marvel 90 with a couple features removed (better aides, $100 cheaper).
Also, Bluetooth Low Energy was not developed by Apple for hearing aides; it wasn’t developed by Apple at all. In fact, Apple was slower to adopt the BLE spec than many of the big Android phone manufacturers (often the case with Apple and most tech). However, since Apple is very adept at marketing, iPhone is the single most popular platform (and moreso for the elderly), and so app producers tend to target Apple first, which is why we see HAs compatible with Apple first.
It’s correct that Apple did not develop BLE. BLE is like a toolkit that can be used for various applications. Irrespective of whether or not Apple was slower to adopt BLE than Android manufacturers, Apple was the first to use BLE for hearing aids. Developing an interface between a phone and a hearing aid is a cooperative effort. The phone manufacturer and the hearing aid manufacturer must work together. Apple was the first to do this for hearing aids, and it became widely available quite quickly, due to the way Apple updates iOS. Android followed with ASHA, but it’s slow coming to market, due to the way Android gets updated. Now that BT 5.2 has been ratified, its audio streaming standard will most likely take over.
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And Apple will be quick at adapting BT5.2 but I do not see Apple dropping MFI any time soon. Apple may figure out how to adapt 5.2 in with MFI and can see that happening.
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Here’s a very good explanation of what’s coming with BT5.2:
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You’d think so but I couldn’t find it confirmed anywhere. Made those other changes. Thanks
iPhone 11 is BT 5.0. I would surprised if iPhone 12 wasn’t BT 5.1. I’m guessing 1-2 years (September 2021, a year from the release of the iPhone 11) before there will be an iPhone with BT 5.2.
That would be MFI 2. I can’t think of any sane reason why they would do that.
@d_Wooluf Phonak bluetooth has binaural streaming, eg it has a separate stream to each aid. You can see this in the list of connected devices on your phone. Phonak has a paper that says:
"In order to overcome the Bluetooth limitation of being able to stream to one ear only, a dedicated algorithm was developed that extends the Bluetooth capabilities to allow streaming to both ears. "
I’m fairly certain that it’s full duplex - talking and listening, not turn-taking. I talk on the phone several times a day using my Marvels, and either I’m missing some social cues or its operating in duplex mode. The paper above says:
“Bluetooth Classic offers clients the advantage over Bluetooth LE of using the Advanced Audio distribution Profile (A2DP) standard for audio streaming from all Bluetooth devices and supports hands-free phone calls using the standard Hands Free Profile (HFP). In fact, Bluetooth Classic is so widespread that even popular Apple Bluetooth streaming devices like Apple AirPods® utilize it instead of their proprietary solution”
I’m pretty sure Airpods are full duplex for phone calls as well.
Larry