If it is a somewhat older model then the sales to NHS and US VA don’t have to support the fixed costs of overhead including R&D as much as a newer product. Since the market supported the fixed costs they can sell them closer to the variable costs (plus returns).
Even if they are newer aids (and successful) they can still depend on the market to foot most of the bill and give the big buyers like NHS and VA a big break (just not as big a break as in the older tech.).
Melfan3,
Have you checked with your home owners insurance or if you rent with your renters insurance? It might be worth a shot to see if the HA and streamer would be covered.
Which begs the question Dr. Amy… If the manufacturers can and do sell at these prices to the VA/ NHS and presumably make a profit, then it would suggest that the manufacturers are guilty of price hiking? Or, is the private sector subsidizing these massive dispensers? Methinks it is in the interest of the manufacturers to keep their prices to the private sector artificially high and thereby their profit margins remain excellent, to the detriment of the disabled end user! These end users would most likely love a set of Ambra’s or Agil Pro’s and would perhaps be ideal candidates for these aids… But, they are priced out of the market and have to make do with whats available to their purse strings, to the severe knock on effect of their quality of life!!!
Cheers Kev.
This and this.
The moral argument on here is moot. You simply wouldn’t get the type of development in aids if there was no return for features like wireless technology. It’s too simplistic to ask for the benefits of an industry without accepting it needs money to drive it along.
The NHS and VA get a ‘free’ ride on the back of this.
I would prefer that I could get a new Mercedes for £10,000, but I can’t. I ‘need’ the car to do my job, but I get taxed on it too. If Mercedes put out cars loaded with the same features for £10k I doubt they would be able to develop the next model.
Hearing-Aids could be cheaper, however while people are willing to pay high prices for them, they won’t be. The existing market is a sum of all the individual purchasing decisions made - it reflects the history of ‘selfish’ individual decision making. Whether that is ethical or not doesn’t come into the situation.
As for the NHS panacea - how long ago was the NHS still commissioning reports to ‘prove’ that one hearing aid was as effective as two? Does that reflect a greater interest in the patient or again does it just come down to finances…
Well said, but I will say it more in the eyes of a businessman. If I have a product that costs me $100 to fabricate, I would rather sell 1M of them at $1500 then 5M at $150. The 4M patients who will go without them are not relevant.
UmBongo took the words out of my mouth, so I won’t elaborate.
But whether right or wrong, there is NOTHING the government pays wholesale for anyway. Like I said, they have the ultimate buying power. This doesn’t mean the HA manufacturers are corrupt, it means it is a business.
dr.amy
Aye Steve
This might hurt a wee bit and as we aint had a rip roaring argument in a while, my profound apologies before you start reading;)
To you and most of your profession the moral argument on here might need to be moot/irrelevant, perhaps for your own peace of mind? You see Steve, you could be the best Audi/Dispenser in the world, I don’t give a sh!t! But, I do care about the millions of people out there whom are sensory impaired in this world, they are denied a better quality of life, in especial the Severe/ Profound threshold! The vast percentage of Audi’s will never ever quite grasp the nettle, they can contemplate and attempt to understand hearing loss in theory, but they will never understand how it feels! Very few Audi’s are actually deaf and of the ones I know whom are deaf, they work in the NHS… Most probs, they are trying to give a decent service to their kindred spirits? You can wax lyrical all day long about development costs etc’…Doesn’t cut the mustard with me, tis pure b@llocks and then some! I am in no way against profit or development costs, but there is a limit…
In the real world Steve and not in your or any of the other Audi’s imaginary ones… The vast majority of folks with a severe hearing loss would gladly pay for high end aids if they could afford them, but sadly because of their loss they are severely discriminated by society on a whole, for example via work; they may be in very poorly paid dead end jobs, with little or no prospect of ever being promoted, tis nothing to do with their intelligence, just the fact they are deaf, is enough! They will most likely suffer from mental health issues, being the butt end of everyone’s jokes, unable to realize their dreams takes its toll eventually! They will be ignored by their work colleagues, (if they are able to get a job? Many will not find any gainful employment) left out of conversations, denied vital information about their job, mainly because most folks can’t be @rsed communicating! To rub salt into the wounds, the majority of the Private Hearing Industry will then promise them their absolute return to the “Hearing World” via this or that Wonder Hearing Aid (More b@llocks) But, in order to reach this Hearing Nirvana, they will the commit highway robbery and charge you £5000 for a pair of HA’s that cost £200 to make, nice work if you can get it, but they have a captive audience, whom need these HA’s in order to function in a Hearing World… Yeah, screw the moral fiber or ethics if you work in the Private Hearing Industry, just deny or deflect attention, for this is all about the profit margin and hearing aid development, manufacturers blame the Audi’s for the high mark up and vice versa :rolleyes:
FFS, this is disabled people you are dealing with here and the analogy of the Merc is way off base Steve, so get a grip, the only impairment you would get buying an old Lada instead of a Merc (would still get you from A to B) perhaps your image might be slightly dented? The same can’t be said for hearing aids! You may be above reproach, but you are acutely aware of the failings in the Hearing Industry, to deny this would be a lie… The selfish manufacturers are denying millions of people worldwide the benefits of vastly improved hearing, profits before ethics, money comes before their fellow human beings quality of life…Why? Because good men stand back and do nothing!!!
Cheers Kev:D
No Dr. Amy, they are worse than just corrupt, they are downright criminal 
Cheers Kev:D
Last time this came up, I argued from the other side: only to be told that this is a business and the way that a business works is to be profitable by providing a level of goods and service that people perceive they need.
I’m not getting into what is moral or criminal about any health supply chain (like rationing of Statins or life-prolonging cancer drugs), but there is a reason why firms like Glaxo and Roche exist. And, when everybody is bricking it about their HN51 immunity, the concept of ‘cost’ seems to be a bit remote.
If the hearing aid industry needs to supply more aids, more cheaply, in your opinion, that’s fine: however until there is sufficient demand, it’s unlikely to occur. The market is expensive, because individuals will pay a high price to improve their hearing: which isn’t as easy as supplying ‘product’.
What’s the total cost of your ‘investment’ on this iteration of hearing aids? Why did you spend that kind of money?
Looking at the William Demant financials (Oticon, Bernafon) it doesn’t appear the markup is all that much when you consider all the manufacturing costs. The gross profit figure is revenue minus what it costs to make, which includes not only the raw material but all the labor and other costs as well. This looks like a normal, healthy company, with 988 million profit on 6.8 billion in revenue.
ZCT, i tried to send you a PM but it says your box is full
Make some space so I can buzz you.
dr.amy
Thanks to all for your replies and help. I am the OP about being ripped off by the audiologist…the topic seems to have changed course somewhere along the line.
Anyhow, I went into the office today to try and work things out with them. I brought the one hearing aid I had to return to them in a show of good faith. When I asked for a receipt, they attempted to have me sign what should have been the original agreement that I was never shown, nor ever signed. I refused to sign it, however they ended up giving me a copy anyhow signed only by them. I tried to reason with them, asked them to show proof that that is what they paid for those aids, or proof that is what they would cost them to replace them and I would gladly reimburse them that amount. Of course they refused to show me any proof of their actual cost, as many people said they would.
They insist, although they acknowlege I was never informed and never signed anything, that that is “office policy” and they want the full $3200. I told them it’s also policy to have informed me before I took these aids of their policy to pay full retail price if anything happened to them. I might or might not have taken this risk had I known this, there’s no way to know now. I told them I would be resonable and certainlly reimburse them for any actual costs they might incur due to my son losing one, but I would not pay full retail cost. They stuck to their guns, offered no compromise but didn’t say if they would bill me or pursue collections or not. I guess I’ll have to wait and see if I receive a bill. They admitted they were in the wrong, yet did not offer any solutions, other than me paying full price for the lost aid!
Hate to spend money on a lawyer, which will probably end up being more than the cost of replacing an aid. I know I will win in court, they have no case without proof of my my having known that I was reponsible for this amount of money. However, I don’t feel like I can stop them from billing me or turning it over to collections without taking them to court. Just hate to spend the money to go that route…although, I’m so mad at this point, I would rather give that money to a lawyer than to them! Any suggestions of who I can report them to? Surely this is fraud, trying to get a patient to agree to something after the fact? Thanks!
I am glad that you are sticking to your guns on this…I think the behavior of the office is abhorrent in this situation. They screwed up and they should accept responsibility for it. The fact that they tried to deceive you into signing the form they forgot to have you sign when you came in to try to resolve the issue is incredible. You have been more than understanding and tried to resolve this without intervention, I definitely think the next step would be to contact the state licensing board.
You should contact the Audiology and/or Hearing Instrument Specialists licensing board in your state (some states have them separate, most it’s combined) and ask to file a complaint. You might even call the medical board and ask to file a complaint against the ENT’s office as well. It might not do anything or go anywhere but that would be the place I’d start if you want to file a complaint. If nothing else, it might get the office to stop threatening you and have the whole issue just go away from your end. I, personally, hope they have some kind of penalty to warning to prevent them from trying to do this again.
Don’t forget to file a complaint with the BBB (Better Business Bureau)
Just to get a lawyer to write them a letter, offering to replace the aid at their wholesale price, might cost $200 - $500. If you bought one somewhere else and gave it to them, could they refuse it, if it is the exact same model and in an unopened box? You could ask them if they would accept that. If they don’t, and they know it is exactly the same aid, then they are not acting in good faith.
But if they will accept one bought somewhere else and in a new unopened box then you might PM some of the pros on the board and see if one will order it for you, for a reasonable charge.
Another option might be a local TV station “on your side” thing where they tell both sides and how they worked it out.
Thanks for your advice. I was thinking about reporting them but was unsure who to report it to. I also considered waiting until I received a bill but you are right, I need to prevent this from happening to someone else. So, I think I will be proactive about it, since I have it in writing that they will bill me…although really this is a foolish move on their part. Maybe they were bluffing to see if I would sign and pay for it but I can’t take that chance.
Don’t think getting another aid is a solution. These were marked demo, therfore, unable to be sold. The one I would get would not be. I’m just sure these guys would sell it to some poor unsuspecting consumer…plus, they didn’t pay anywhere near retail price, if anything, why should I?
If anyone is looking for an audiologist in the Houston area, please PM me so I can steer you clear of these horrible people! Thanks for your help.
Given your position, and the fact that they tried to deceive you at your attempt to repay the value of the outstanding aid, why don’t you try contacting Oticon US directly in writing. If you outline the position and your efforts to repay the cost of your demo aid: plus mention how badly it reflects on them that their representation in your area would make you think twice before buying from them ever again.
At least it might save you getting a Lawyer in.
I have contacted Octicon when this all first started about a month ago, have heard nothing from them. When I do decide to purchase, this will weigh heavily on my decision of who to deal with since this company did not even acknowlege my complaint! Thanks for the advice!
You mention that the HA’s were marked “Demo” , therefore unable to be sold. If the HA’s were demo’s, then my thought is that they had been used (demo’d) by others before you, which to me says they are used. Why should anyone pay full price for a used item? Just a thought…
The pros can tell us for sure but I assume the office marked them just as a way to keep everything straight. They probably came new just like any other aids?
I was thinking some pro on the board might order it for you at near wholesale since all they have in it is the order and receive time. It would help them slightly in getting any volume discounts.
No, they were not handmarked but printed directly on the side of the aid…they had to have come that way from the maufacturer…they could not have been done by a person, but a machine. Does that make sense? I have a picture I took for my records…I’ll upload if if I can.
They admitted both verbally and in writing on the “recepit” that they were demos. Just wish I could get someone from Octicon to confirm that they provide these for audiologists at little or no cost to them. They refuse all of my inquiries though, which gives me no confidence in their integrity at all. I just know this is the case!