That makes total sense; if you have reasonable low frequency hearing, the bass will come through. This is entirely different with streaming, where the bass has to be produced by the HA receivers, which have limited output at low frequencies (and a lot of these will leak back out through open(ish) domes.
In the Phonak Remote app? All I see is volume control and program selection.
Thanks, @richnfamus1 ! Here is my first stab at comparing the Quattro 9 61’s with presumably the Phonak Audeo M 90’s, both with medium power receivers. I took the maximum output curves for both at 90 dB SPL input, rescaled the Phonak curve in Photoshop Elements to match the Quattro curve, then made everything in the Phonak layer but the output curve for 90 dB SPL input transparent and dropped the resulting curve over the Quattro curve. The comparison does indeed show that at 100 Hz, the Marvel’s are capable of about 7 dB SPL more output than the Quattro’s. I’ve heard that for every 10 dB increase in output there is a roughly 2x perceived increase in loudness so that might mean for the same maximum input at 100 Hz the Marvels would sound almost 2x as loud (1.5x?). If I made any egregious errors in doing the overlay, anyone can let me know - the axes of the two images don’t quite match up 100% but it’s close enough for me. The Marvel is in GREEN, the QUATTRO in DARK GREY.
If I get ambitious, I’ll do the other output curves just for the fun of it.
I fully admit to not understanding this stuff well, but I don’t think those differences are meaningful, if for no other reason than I don’t think anybody with a loss that could be fit by a medium power receiver would be having receivers output greater than 100 dBSPL.
iPhone vs Android
Some of the technical stuff is greek to me, but I’m glad it floats some people’s boats!
In searching outside the forum, I found the following Starkey reference to HA fitting/performance parameters:
now in its fourth edition. It discusses the various tests and their significance. And either in the reference or another discussion of the ANSI tests, it was mentioned that test results are furnished to the provider in an insert put into every set of HA’s shipped. Searching the forum, I see that the Starkey guide, intended for providers, has been cited as excellent in about five different threads over the years.
The 90 dBSPL input test is done just to measure maximum power output that an HA is capable of across the frequency spectrum fitted with a particular power receiver.
The spectra show that both Marvel’s and Quattro’s are capable of > 100 dBSPL output but if you mean that ordinarily no one would want to listen to sound at > 90 dBSPL input, I agree with that as it would be literally deafening if listened to consistently at that input volume. The graph on the acoustic full-on-gain with 50 dBSPL input is perhaps a more relevant comparison of how any HA would perform in everyday use, as 50 (to 60) dBSPL is more in the normal volume range of human speaking/music listening (at least if you want to preserve your remaining hearing!!) and the acoustic gain is how many dB above the 50 dBSPL the HA’s can amplify the 50 dBSPL input when their volume settings are turned up to the max (which most people also would probably NOT want to do). So just for the fun of it, I will try overlaying the Marvel and Quattro graphs to see how they compare with more normal sound input levels. But how much of any frequency you hear in the end undoubtedly depends on how your audi (or you, if you are DIY’er) have set the gain for there in the fitting program.
I was mistaken. The <-> button while streaming at the bottom in the phonak remote app is only available while streaming. However, it seems to save the setting for phone calls.
Phonaks response on the Bluetooth issue with iPhone XS and XS Plus if anyone’s interested:
Hi Dave-The latest information we have is that it appears to be an iOS issue as the Marvel device works with other version of iPhone on different iOS versions. We use Bluetooth Classic, standard Bluetooth profile. Unfortunately, we do not have a timeline as to when an iOS update may be pushed to resolve this incompatibility issues. Our Swiss headquarters has been working on it, but no further information. We apologize for this inconvenience.
I honestly think that Phonak is going to have to revise some of their marketing lingo. Current marketing makes it sound as if the Marvel hearing aids will connect with virturally any Bluetooth device.This is not true. I am trialing them right now with a fairly new Motorola Android phone that is running Oreo 8.1, and the Marvels will not connect to it. Caveat emptor! Check the Phonak support Web site to make sure your phone will work with the Marvels before you buy them, or be prepared to buy a new phone that actually will connect. Even my AuD said that he and the other AuDs who went to Marvel product training were told that the Marvels could be used with “any device with Bluetooth.” He was surprised to learn, too, that my phone is not one of those "any devices."So, maybe Phonak should say the Marvels will connect with “many” Android phones and Bluetooth devices, but not all. Otherwise, it’s false advertising. Just my two cents.
The Marvel uses Bluetooth Classic and therefore should connect to anything speaking the same “language.” So there is clearly an issue with my iPhone XS when it comes to the hands-free calling. The other operations using Bluetooth with my Marvels work brilliantly. More to come…
I am using XS with Oticon OPN and it works flawlessly for bluetooth. Occasionally I have connectivity issues because I have a SE, iPad fighting for it (and I will sort it out - I am just trying to figure out what devices I want to use for what and so have left it as such for the time being). Phone and conference calls are being much better for me.
I am in a new city on a travel and I decided to use Google Maps guide me on long walks to a couple of places and eats and it worked so seamlessly with my hearing aid that I felt so empowered after a long time…No more hunching over the phone every few minutes to update my direction or straining to hear…I just walked…No “switching over to bluetooth” silence/cutoff every few minutes it needed to speak up…I just heard cleanly and seamlessly and continued.
I will be very interested in seeing how this will work for Marvel. Largely, MFI hearing aids have had a tremendous advantage and I will not be keen to buy Marvel if it has bluetooth issues with XS. Perhaps I will wait one more year for this classic bluetooth technology to mature.
I was fitted yesterday (Thursday) morning with the Phonak Audeo Marvel R Hearing Aids. My audiologist carries all the brands I was considering (Marvel, Quattro, and Evoke 440) and after reading the various reviews on this site I decided to move forward with the Marvel rechargeable. My audiologist was the fourth one I visited and by far the best in all aspects. My initial test appointment lasted roughly 90 minutes and she spent a lot of time explaining and going over options with me. She herself has worn hearing aids since she was a baby, and she currently has the Widex Evoke 440 aids. She just last week attended the Phonak training and she did say she was very impressed with the Marvel aids. I am the fourth person in her practice to get fitted with the Marvels.
Anyway, the actual fitting yesterday lasted about two hours. She initially did a feedback test and then we moved on to the REM setup with each of the aids. She did not care for the vented ear pieces that came with the hearing aids because she was unable to achieve the levels of amplification the REM measurements indicated I needed in the higher frequencies. She replaced them with vented closed ear pieces (a medium size on the right ear and a small size on the left ear). We installed them around 9:00 am and I wore them continuously until about 11 pm. First day was kind of rough as I was hearing a lot of sounds that were frankly uncomfortable (wife rattling plates in the kitchen on granite counters; water running; refrigerator doors and garbage compactor closing; tin foil being used; wife eating from tortilla chip plastic bag, etc.) All of these sounded harsh and somewhat uncomfortable. Audiologist had told me to expect this to happen as she errs on the side of over amplification and we were right up to the REM levels. Per her instructions I used the Phonak Remote to lower the volumes from the zero (neutral) setting down to minus 3 or 4 and that did help, but some of those sounds were/are still annoying. I am a first time user and she said it will take a while for my brain to adjust to hearing all these new sounds.
Today, I went to the gym and did 30 minutes on the cross trainer while streaming music from my iPhone 7 Plus to the hearing aids. Music sounded great (not as good as my Bose noise cancelling headphones, but not too far behind). The only problem is since they don’t completely seal my ears I was able to hear two women shouting at each other while on their machines nearby for about half my workout. Anyway the connection with my iPhone is working flawlessly. Phone calls are also excellent. After the cross trainer went to a one hour stretching class and was able to hear everything the instructor was saying without any problems.
This evening we went to a very noisy restaurant (people all around us were shouting) but the hearing aids performed very well and I was able to hear and converse very well. Tried the Speech in Loud Noise program but honestly I think the AutoSense Program did as well or better.
Overall after just two days I am very pleased with these hearing aids. Being a first time user I don’t really have any experience to compare to but so far so good.
Your first hearing aids will definitely take some “getting used to”. Your brain is being bombarded with sounds it hasn’t had to hear for a very long time.
Next time you stream, turn the Hearing aid volume button up. It essentially mutes the external sounds the more you turn it up. That will help when you are at the gym, in the car, etc.
Spoke to one of the Phonak reps about integrated Audio (DAI) shoe in Marvel hearing aids. For use with the Roger system. She said it was planned for 2019. Is that the RogerDirect that is being mentioned here?
Yes it is. You won’t need a receiver as it’ll work without, once you’ve had the firmware update.
Right, but it isn’t constant level that is being addressed in the areas like music but the dynamic aspect of it with its crescendos. With a 90 dB input limit a good deal of distortion will result.
Is the phonak dect compatible with Marvel?
That I’m not sure. Will look it up now.
EDIT: I don’t believe it will work.
Oh no! I become sad.
I will have to buy a cordless dect bluetooth …
Thanks for the answer! Very kind