Higher comprehension is due to compression system it use nearly liner compression in low frequency in presence of noise. Literature in philips link shows it. And for quiter environment it will adopt non liner.
I need to read that Phillips link again to make sure I understand it as well as possible. However my initial thoughts are that compression is just amplification based on the sound level. Normally there will be three zones of compression and two knee points that separate them. And again normally based on hearing loss vs frequency the compression ratios and knee points change with frequency. And the normal strategy is to amplify lower level sounds more than higher level sounds. This is to try and correct for the non linear hearing loss that most have. Our loss is greater at lower levels than higher levels.
So, when they say they change the compression that is really a back door way of saying they are changing amplification. Again it is pretty normal for the noise reduction logic to do that. Perhaps it means more than that, but that was my conclusion based on the initial read.
I may not get all of this correct but:
You’re correct that compression is amplifying softer sounds more. That’s a simple way of putting it but generally accurate. And once a sound is audible, then that works. So now you have the sounds that used to be in that range. You have to move those medium sounds up too otherwise they would get lost with the soft sounds and sound garbled and completely unnatural. So you amplify those a little bit, but now the louder sounds need a place, so you move them up a little too. The problem is that in an environment with a huge range of sounds of all levels coming from all directions, if you try to be too smart about your amplification, one minute you’re surrounded by soft sounds and the next you’re surrounded by loud sounds. And that is changing every millisecond. So the safest bet (for clear understanding) is to stop worrying about what sounds are soft, what sounds are medium, and what are loud… and to just focus on trying to figure out what you might want to hear and making it stand out as best that you can. The best way to do that has a lot to do with what the hearing loss is, what the surrounding sound that needs to be dealt with is, what the comfort level is, and what sort of isolation the hearing aids can provide due to open domes, tulips, closed domes, power domes, or earmolds. The more closed off the hearing is, the more you can retain that compression and keep a moderate level of comfort. The more open it is, the more it is necessary to compete for any spot to be heard.
That’s why they say they change the compression. In a “quiet” environment, it’s easy. In a busy, loud environment, decisions have to be made by the device on the spot.
Even though I wear closed domes, what you’ve described is exactly what I’ve experienced with all my previous hearing aids (Phonak, Resound, Kirkland), but not with the Philips.
They all amplify the frequencies that match my hearing loss and when I turn them up they all amplify those frequencies even more. Unfortunately, the noise emanating from the air conditioning vents in my living room at home and the conference room at work is in the same frequency range as my most severe loss. So, before I got the Philips, it was almost impossible for me to understand speech when the a/c was on, no matter how much I turned up the volume on them. That was especially true of the KS8s, which amplified the blower sound SO MUCH!! WHOOOSH!! It was bad enough that I would occasionally turn off the HVAC during meetings at work and make everybody sweat or freeze. Good thing I’m so popular there! 
Right! And the Philips aids make better decisions. When the blower comes on it’s LOUD, that is, until somebody starts talking. Then the aids detect speech and somehow, almost miraculously, stop amplifying the noise of the blower and only amplify the speech. (Impossible, I know, but it seems like that.) Quoting the documentation: “The noise reduction system further attenuates noise in frequency bands dominated by noise.” So I hear the speech clearly and the noise of the blower is “attenuated.” (They stop amplifying all the white noise frequencies of the blower that don’t exactly match the voice of whoever is speaking.) The end result is that I understand what people are saying much better, the noise of the blower is greatly reduced, and we all get to enjoy the air conditioning.
So when speech stops you hear the blower noise again, but as soon as speech starts and during speech, you don’t get overwhelmed by the blower noise and can hear speech better? But the overall result is that it’s as if the blower sounds is always there, but you can now understand speech better despite the blower sound being as if it’s always present?
Or is the blower noise still greatly reduced in between speech? For example, somebody says something, then stops momentarily, then somebody else chimes in to answer. Is the blower noise still greatly reduced in between that non speech moment?
Good question. I wish it continued to recognize the blower as just noise and leave it subdued, but it does come back during moderate pauses in speech. If the conversation continues as it usually does there’s no problem, but if there’s a couple of seconds pause (I haven’t timed it) the noise does come back.
The rising and falling volume of background noise can be annoying. There’s a lot of room for improvement in the programming. It’s most bothersome when watching a baseball game on TV. The announcers pause often and for lengthy periods as they should, but when they do the noise of the crowd in the background rises too much. I think that’s exacerbated by the television production itself, which also brings up the noise of the crowd when the announcers aren’t talking.
OK, thanks. Initially many people originally speculated that the Hearlink was a cousin of the OPN. However, there was official confirmation later that it doesn’t have the equivalent of the OpenSound Navigator. Your explanation above confirms this, because with the OpenSound Navigator, it would have sounded like the blower noise never left, so there’s no rise and fall in the noise volume in between speech. Nevertheless, that noise is still reduced in the presence of speech, just too quickly for you to realize that it was reduced, only for you to notice that you can understand speech better.
The Hearlink noise reduction as you described seems more consistent with the experience I had with the Sonic Enchant 100 technology. They do have pretty great technology on how to handle noise and improve speech. I was pretty impressed when I tried it out for a few weeks.
This is typical what i had when trying Viron 9. During speech, I didn’t get to hear except it(no background noise). But When speech stop, background noise (TV, blower, AC…etc.) comes back.
For me, this was distracting and I felt that when someone is talking am isolated in a room and don’t have any surrounding senses.
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I don’t have any experience with the Bernafon hearing aids. But from what I read up on it, its technology seems similar to the Sonic Enchant 100 I tried out, although that was just a guess. It does make sense if they share technologies, though, being sister companies and all…
That’s how noise reduction is working .if there is no competing sound to campare as nois and speech DSP won’t know what to reduce from spectrum.
Are there any issues with warbling when using feedback rejection?
They don’t whistle or screech like I’ve heard older hearing aids do, like a feed-backing PA system. When the feedback reduction cuts in they kind of make a “whirring” sound. It’s not very loud and is quickly suppressed, but it is noticeable. It only happens when I have them turned all the way up to my prescription, and in most cases I just turn them down a bit.
Thanks. It’s that ‘whirring’ sound that I am talking about. I play guitar, and it seems all modern aids misinterpret higher notes as feedback and then hop in right away to squash it. I’m working with my fitters at trying to make modern aids work for me, as I love the Bluetooth functionality. I have another appt Sunday afternoon… keep on tweaking!
So, I went and tried Philips hearing aids at Costco on Sunday. And I ordered a pair of the rechargeable aids. Overall, the feedback rejection is good - not nearly as invasive or ‘trilly’ as the KS9s. They will be here in two weeks. At that time, I will have both the KS9s and the Philips and I will see which I prefer in my everyday environment, and return the others. They sound promising, though!
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I’m looking forward to the results of your comparison. I’ve heard good things about the KS9s.
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Hi! New here are reading this thread with great interest! I’m at a decision point with Costco as well, coming down to the KS9 or the Philips. Demo’d both at the store but of course very hard to tell not in your own environment. I mentioned the Philips background gain to them… the starting and stopping of the background noises based on speech and the Costco people told me they’d never heard of those comments, but I experienced it there and since I had read this thread, I understood what was happening. Never thought to ask to order both and return one.
I previously had the Brio. The KS9 seems to be less of an adjustment since it’s likewise a Phonak product. They told me this has the Marvel chip but is not a Marvel, based on comments and research. The advantage to this aid is that it will stream calls to my Samsung, no iPhone needed. They had it set to about 80% of what the program is asking for and that still seems too loud, everything seems overdone, overly loud but that can be adjusted. (The tech I’m working with asked me if I generally have sensitivity to sound, that I’m always asking to reduce the program and make it lower – I’m trying to get things to sound natural and not in my face all the time! The crinkly produce bags and sounds of the cart sound so artificial!)
The Philips – I wanted it to be the slam dunk based on what I’ve read here and I’m not used to hearing what someone is saying a full aisle away in Costco! The background noise did its thing and that may take some getting used to. The hearing aid in general seems so loud… the technician told me she had it set to something like 40% of what the program is asking for and at that range I could deal with it, but isn’t that weird? The advantage there is that I would love the rechargeability and the Telecoil – I volunteer as an usher at a fabulous theatre locally and am a theater buff in general, so picking up what goes on in the theatre through the aids would be a treat but not essential. I have no iPhone so that feature doesn’t matter at the moment.
I think the KS9 is in the lead at the moment but really not sure which way to go. The first time with the Brio, there was a very clear decision between those and the alternate at the time (maybe Rexton?) This time, splitting hairs! Any other comments on experience with either of these would be helpful, thank you!
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@DeDe15, Thanks for this comparison review. I’ve been wondering about the Philips brand myself. Can you expand a little more on the “starting and stopping of background noise” that you experienced with the Philips?
RE the volume. I wonder what fitting rationale(s) was/were used during your fittings. If the Philips was programmed with the proprietary VAC+ that is usually used by Oticon (which is now affiliated with Philips)–that rationale is known to be a bit louder than the NAL-NL2 program. You might ask the fitter which fitting rationale was used and see if another fitting rationale might not seem as loud to you. Also, perhaps the fitter can set the hearing aids to have incremental increases in loudness as you become used to wearing them.
One thing you might want to keep in mind–I think the KS9 (based on Phonak Marvel) is not “locked” when you buy it from Costco, but I think the accessories might be limited. With the Philips, I think it is locked because Costco is the only place that sells it, so it couldn’t be serviced anywhere else, but they do offer accessories such as the Clip-on microphone that can be used for Android phones and in loud environments, and a remote control, etc. I’m not sure of all the ins and outs of what Costco offers, but you might want to factor some of this into your decision. Good luck, and please post any additional info about your experience comparing these two brands. Very helpful. 
I can’t help you with your choice, but thought I’d let you know 4 years ago I did exactly what you have contemplated – put both the Rexton Trax 42 aids and the current KS (6? 7?) aids on my credit card, tried them both in my ordinary environments, and once I decided, returned one pair. The Costco audi knew I was doing this and had no objections.
P.S. If you decide on the KS9s, or even can do it after trialing them, I hope you’ll leave a review in that thread. I have the Trax now, which work with BT devices via a neck medallion. I dislike wearing the thing and often leave it off when I’m out and about and then regret it. There’s a real appeal to HAs that would obviate that, and I’d like to hear from more people how they find phone calls with those aids.
The Philips sounded very interesting when they were first discussed here, but the fact they’re designed primarily for iPhone makes them a no go for me.
I feel quite underqualfied to post here, it seems that others have much more experience! Had I not read Emsgran’s review prior to trying out the Philips, I might not have known or noticed what was happening with the background noise. It was completely out of my mind until I put on the trials and the Costco tech started talking to me and I noticed a subtle suppression of the air conditioning/other noises in the Costco building and her voice was more pronounced since the background was ever-so-slighly muffled. It’s not drastic, night and day, but it’s there and I noticed it. When she stopped talking, the background noise slightly rose again until she started talking again, so weird but also interesting! My previous Brio’s never did that but they’re old (I was told today first generation) but I really liked them! And as soon as it happened I put 2 + 2 together and figured out what the Philips were doing. Not sure if it would bother me long term or if my brain would get used to it but if you’re sensitive to the subtleties of what’s going on with your hearing aids, you may notice it!
I had an extended time with the KS9 but may make another appointment and try the Philips again. I thought they’d be the slam dunk but at this point I’m leaning towards the KS9’s with an eye out for when my 6 month trial will end…if the Brio 4 or whatever they’ll call it shows up by March (6 months), my guess is that it will be like the KS9 with telecoil and rechargeable batteries that I’d love to have. Mostly I want something that I can more clearly hear voices with in as many situations as possible. The features are nice but different on each and if going by features, I have a Samsung so the KS9’s would have the edge there. Will continue to read here as more people try/buy these and we get more feedback.
Also, thanks for the info on the accessories, I’ll try to find out what’s offered. I did download the KS9 app and tried to hook up my phone to the aids but didn’t have much time/luck. The app did not allow me a lot of manual control. I asked one of the techs about it and was told that in both cases, Philips and Phonak, they want you to use the automatic program and not mess around with programming on your own, but that if you’re insistent and as a “last resort”, they can add additional programs to your app. For example, you constantly frequent the same restaurant and want some background or special noise cancellation for specific instances, I was told that they can program it into your app but they don’t usually do so or want to, that the companies are proud of the tech they’ve already put into the HA and don’t want you messing with it! Your mileage may vary!