Rabbit trails are a good thing. Often where a lot of good knowledge comes to the light! (see above re: wind noise)
I’d refine that a bit and say that a premium device is very worthwhile for some people. Neville has commented before that many people can’t tell the difference but some people benefit a lot. He says the unfortunate thing is that he has no ability to predict who will fall into which group.
OPN S warbling issue are caused by the feedback shield. You will need to switch it off and the warbling will stop . But will have to suffer of feedback (terrible in my case)
Next appointment, I’ll be sure to bring some other domes which are less feedback prone and see what happens when we turn off the feedback management. Maybe time to look at getting custom moulds if I’m going to wear OPN S without the new feedback management enabled.
Reading this thread shows just how important hearing aid programming is and how most modern hearing aids are very good.
Also the OP gained hearing aid experience as he went from aid to aid. His brain learned as he went along getting better and better.
All the aids tested are probably excellent aids. They just have to be programmed properly and the wearer needs time wearing them to learn.
The wireless and Bluetooth technologies are the differences. Ease of use with these technologies for an individuals needs would matter.
brain learned as he went along
Definitely. more so learning to filter out the ambient noises that everyone else takes for granted. Having improved hearing after the first month, I missed wearing the HA when I had the ear pain with the Phonaks (again dome fitment issues, not a problem with the aids themselves).
All aids tested probably excellent - programmed properly.
Wireless and bluetooth tech are the differences.
That they are, no disputing that. Well programmed aids do make a huge difference compared to first fit, or wrongly programmed.
I would put forth that the more open philosophy of Oticon would set them apart from others that are more directional. Unless that again can be brought back to programming?
I would also hope, with this thread, that others are able to follow a similar path as I have. Talk to their hearing professional and trial a variety of aids, have them programmed properly and make their decision as I am, by finding the HA that works best and also fits for them. If it weren’t for the fitment issue with the Quattro, my decision would be much, much harder for which HA to go with
I have the Phonak M90-R. I have set WhistleBlock = OFF only for my Music Program. This way I have no whistle problem in ordinary use and most importantly, if I’m listening to music or playing my piano, there is no irritating warble/tremolo. Music sounds like it should.
Phonak Marvels were my choice because I use an Android phone and I didn’t want to have to wear an intermediate device around my neck to stream music.
Haha!! Finally was able to make my way to see the audiologist and Bob’s your uncle. Disable feedback shield and no more warbling when I whistle. I’ll find out when I visit with my niece and nephews if it’s gone when they talk.
Also took an impression today of the left ear for a custom mould which hopefully helps deal with the feedback I’ve been experiencing. So that should be here in another 2 weeks or so and then should be good to go!
Excellent! I’m glad it worked for you too! I can report 1 month later that I’m still good! (no warbling!)
I actually have 2 program…my program by default has the feedback shield disabled and when I want to put headphones over my ears, I switch to my P2 that is identical but with the feedback shield on.
Anti-feedback is done with phase-shifting. In guitar pedals a distantly related scheme is used for vibrato (“Phaser”). It warbles the guitar. Feedback in an aid will often be much higher pitch than guitar and thus “unnatural”. An aggressive anti-feedback may have less musical judgement than a guitarist.
Of course any high-gain boost is liable to “need” anti-feedback. Are there several choices of algorithm? Then they may have offered you a choice of less squeal or less warble.
Yes. Most manufacturers feedback shield (special OTICON) is so aggressive with sounds as whistling, extended letters like O O O , baby crying and so on. Shutting it off will stop it but you will have to watch for your feedback( I suffered continuous one on my left and the Audi couldn’t adjust With OPN )
But the Marvel feedback is really good and although there is warbling it’s really so low that sometimes I can not notice
The nice thing about the Marvel for me, a classical pianist, is that I can totally turn off WhistelBlock ONLY on my Music Program. Music is now totally clean and real sounding. WhistleBlock is active everywhere else. Since Marvel is my first HA, I’d like to know if other manufacturers can do the same selective whistle blocking?
There are only 4 basic (configurable) programs allowed in the ReSound Smart 3D app at one time. With the fitting software, feedback control can be adjusted or turned off separately in any program. The settings are Off, Mild, Moderate, Strong, or Music for ReSound Quattro’s and other recent vintage ReSound HA’s -and my three everyday programs (All-Around, Restaurant, and Outdoors) are set to Mild feedback control (with occlusive domes, I don’t really need any control) and the Music program is set to the music feedback setting but I could turn it off if I wanted to. Apparently with the music feedback setting, ReSound is still on the lookout for true feedback but giving musical tones more free reign and not cutting in with feedback control unless things get extreme.
The following are links to a ReSound web summary of feedback control and music and a ReSound white paper on music and feedback control - the end of the paper has a number of references to studies of hearing aids and music listening - but most of the references date from 2004 to 2009 and even though the PDF creation date is 8/29/18, seems like an older version of ReSound’s fitting software (Aventa) is being discussed: Hearing aids ReSound - dfs-digital-feedback-suppression
ReSound’s Explanation of Feedback in Music Mode vs no Feedback Control at all (from the white paper, 2nd link above):
Music Mode is distinct from other settings of DFS Ultra
II because it analyzes the input sound over a longer
period of time. This allows for better accuracy in distinguishing
true feedback from other tonal input sounds,
such as those commonly found in music. Music often
incorporates signals such as flute and piano notes that
can seem very pure-tone-like, and can be confused
as feedback by the hearing aid. Traditional feedback
systems will try to cancel these sounds, thereby introducing
a disturbing, often tonal sound artifact. Music
Mode was designed to effectively reduce this artifact
occurrence. As a result, the feedback cancellation
component of Music Mode is less likely to adapt to
rapid changes in the feedback path. Music Mode is
considered a less-aggressive feedback cancellation
setting than other settings of DFS Ultra II, and was
designed exclusively to enhance the music-listening
The white paper claims to show a modest improvement in actual HA receiver physical sound output quality in music feedback control mode over having no feedback control at all and claims that the results correlate with surveyed audiophile comments solicited on users listening to music with various ReSound feedback settings or with no feedback control at all.
Edit_Update: Another interesting aspect of the ReSound white paper on music listening with their HA’s is that it emphasizes listening to music with the HA’s set to an omnidirectional mode. So that’s a further reason beyond feedback cancellation for switching to a music program from any other HA program that might have a directional listening component for speech.
I have finally concluded my search for hearing aids. I have decided to keep the Oticon OPN S1, with custom moulds for the right and left ear. As far as sound quality and working well for my environment, these seem to be the best of the ones that I tried. The TV adapter has been working well, as has the connectclip.
All in all, pretty satisfied with the overall experience and with the product received. Pricing of course, could be better, but with insurance it definitely helps with the cost.
Good stuff thanks. I only wish you had included the Marvel 90 in the mix rather than 50, but oh well.
As for everyone being able to do as you did, the costs would likely go up but at least the job market for audiologists would soar!
Just had a visit with my audiologist yesterday afternoon and this is definitely the case with Oticon OPN S series. On my program 1 (VAC+) I had feedback shield disabled, program 2 (NAL-NL2) had feedback shield enabled. So certainly, for Oticon, I can confirm that the feedback control is on a per program basis.
Not sure if anyone will find this relevant, but will just offer my comments regarding an option i miss from switching from Android to iPhone with Resounds.
I loved the app called LiveScribe on the Android. It was possible to use the captioning for school board Or town board meetings, sitting about 15 feet from the school board members seated in front of room. This option is not available with iPhone, as the microphone is inadequate and the app works only when a person Is within a few feet of the iPhone. Most of their apps also have a charge to use.
I have the Resound mini mic, a dismal failure in my opinion.
For now, i carry a Samsung 9, and use the Live Scribe caption application, which is free.
If anyone has other slolutions, please post.
I look forward to seeing what others use in meeting room environments.
Thanks for reading.
You don’t show your audiogram. From my own limited experience, just as important as to what sort of devices you’re using are how occlusive a fit you’re wearing and also how well you do at tuning the settings on your device or in the Smart 3D app. A good occlusive fit helps reduce noise going directly to your ear drums, a problem if you still have decent low-frequency hearing and a very open fit. Although I generally prefer the All-Around program settings sometimes in a place like an HEB grocery store, the store and crowd noise coming from all directions is just too much and I find switching to the Restaurant program and going with a narrow forward-focus directionality really helps minimize the all-around background noise and pick up by soft-spoken wife, who in spite of repeated reminders, does not always look directly at me when she speaks. Going for “Speech Clarity,” at the expense of a bit more tinny sound also helps because the volume of the midtones and treble get increased, the volume of the bass, where a lot of the noise is, gets reduced. I don’t know how the ReSound Mini Mic compares to the Multi Mic but that works pretty well for me and if you want to go to the extra expense of getting an FM receiver to plug into it and an older Roger Pen on eBay(to save money), you can presumably get even better remote microphone reception, judging by what ReSound users say who’ve gone that route.
BTW, the Android 10 beta is now supposed to be available for Samsung S9 devices with the general release version soon to follow. You don’t say if you have Quattro’s but if so, you should soon have direct streaming for your HA’s very soon. Latest Samsung Galaxy S9 and S9+ Android 10 beta arrives as stable release edges closer
Please let me know if I am jumping in “off-topic,” but it sounds like I am on a similar path and hopefully can contribute.
You should be able to see my audiogram, it’s similar to Jim’s but a worse above 2000 I think.
I had Resound Dot2s and then Aleras (9). Frankly, I didn’t do well with either one. It may have been the fittings, but they were done by four different audiologists over 8 years. Always had the same problem. Any volume level that would help me understand speech would also have painful levels of sudden sounds: keys or coins dropping, kids laughing, even groups of adults laughing if there were a number of higher pitched voices in the group.
I cannot work without the Aleras, due to lots of group meetings, and the need to represent the company at gathering and conferences. They are very little help in crowded restaurants, or in one-to-one conversations during “happy hour” or trade shows. I simply cannot hear. They work best in a conference room setting of 10-12 people, but after a couple hours the pain every time people laugh or someone speaks loudly is extremely fatiguing.
So, I am about to get new hearing aids, and based on the above experience, a little nervous about Resound. Also, I have been using Android for a couple of years, and expected to go back to Apple with Resounds, which I didn’t want to do.
I am just finishing up a Starkey trial, auto-programmed to my audiogram. A big improvement over what I have been experiencing with the Aleras, but still not good enough to work without either times that communication is hard or fatigue sets in.
Next up are Phonaks. They are what I wanted originally, but the Audiologist had the Starkeys and had to order the Phonaks.
I have learned a lot from this and other threads: Roger Pen, REM, and custom molds all things I may try. I don’t think my current Audi does REM, but I am tied in for insurance reasons for now and may have to pursue that after selecting a brand.
Open to comments or questions. As many have said, this is a great forum and I appreciate it.
I have the Resound Link2 going on 4 years, and am considering the Quattro’s next.
I have the direct streaming by using the IPhone, and also connect to Apple Watch (which allows me an easy way for HA adjustments).
I have Meniere’s disease, with profound hearing loss and constant tinnitus. The Apple Watch makes changing settings convenient, but I really miss the ability to use the Live Scribe app to help understand the words. I also depend on lip reading, even with the HA’s.
The Resound link2 961’s were premium aids when I got them, but I am hoping the Quattros offer some improvement.
I don’t think the Resound multi mic is the issue. The problem is probably my specific type of loss, accompanied by constant tinnitus and the changes in my hearing from day to day.
Thanks for the input.