Oticon Intent 1 Short 2-week Trial

[Volusiano]

@bradw

I’ve only skimmed the thread
but it seems like the Oticon’s are manual program switching only. That is firmly in the Cons column for me.
Back when I trialed the Oticon Opn, I would say that the app was superior to Phonak’s app, and the aids were better in some situations…such as wind…
But the Phonak Autosense was a game changer in my experience… I NEVER have to touch the aids after I put them on. Probably in large part due to proper set-up for the various programs that it automatically switches between.
Anyway, I was hoping to see that Oticon had something like Autosense but sadly it doesn’t seem to be based on what I’ve read here.

I think you’re totally missing the point of why Oticon aids don’t even need something like Phonak’s AutoSense in the first place. That’s because you just simply don’t understand the Oticon approach to program change like many people don’t → and the approach is that there is really no need to change programs with Oticon aids most of the times in the first place.

Starting with the OPN model already, the Oticon aids is designed so that the user only needs to be in the General program, and if the environment changes, the Oticon aids will just adjust the noise reduction level to match with the change in the environment, all in the same General program.

Phonak’s AutoSense feature, prior to the Lumity model, detects a change in the environment and automatically changes from its default program to another program (like a Speech in Noise program, for example), so that the noise reduction parameters as set in that Speech in Noise program can take effect.

So you see the difference now? Oticon aids stays in General and changes noise reduction parameters to match the environment (not changing programs). Phonak aids instead changes programs to match the environment. Two different approaches to solve the same issue → need more noise reduction when the environment gets more difficult.

While you indicated that you’re happy with AutoSense, I’ve heard from many others on threads in this forum who don’t like to see AutoSense hunting back and forth between programs too often too much.

What does Phonak do now with their latest Lumity model??? They now design the Lumity to sense the environment and adjust noise reduction parameters in the General program without switching over to another program (like Speech in Noise). Oh, wait a minute, Oticon has already done this right from the get go with their OPN model, all the way through the Intent now. And Phonak is just beginning to do that same thing with their latest Lumity???

To provide a little bit of history for context → originally with the OPN, Oticon did not provide any other built-in program. That was because the intent (not the new model name, just the word intent) was that just the 1 General program was enough to deal with all environments, because noise reduction values can be automatically adjusted in the General program as the environment changes. Nevertheless, Oticon still made available up to 4 programs total, just in case the users want some kind of customization for the other 3 programs. However, users (like you) still didn’t understand this new nuance, which Oticon HCPs didn’t do a good job explaining to their patients, so Oticon got criticized heavily for not offering any built-in programs at all. In fact, the lack of understanding about this got so bad that people began to have a bad perception of Oticon aids being inferior to other brands. So a year later, Oticon finally succumbed to the pressure and started making built-in programs available to the public.

Many Oticon users will tell you that they use the General program 95% of the time, even in noisy places. Oticon users who manually switch between the General program and other built-in programs made available by Oticon (like Speech in Noise) simply do it because they don’t understand the new use model of the Oticon General program, and thought that they had to do it the conventional way.

[TimMac]

I believe the primary difference between Phonak and Oticon is that Phonak chooses to have several programs within AutoSense 5.0 that can be used to program/save the various program settings. I find this method to be more intuitive and understandable.

Oticon chooses to have one “General” program but it too also has various environments that are used to save the program settings. They just choose to try and present it in a method that is more “understandable” to general public and HIS. For instance, they use “Personalization Questions” or ACT to set some of the program settings. They also have fewer environments “Easy” and “Difficult” that are used to store the settings. With Intent they added “accelerometers” to further adjust program settings within these environments along with speech and noise levels. Note that Phonak had already been doing this for quite some time.

The issue I have with Oticon is there is no way to determine what “Environment” the system thinks you’re in as opposed to Phonak where you can use the App. Oticon has added this ability in the Genie Reporting Tool but it is primarily designed for the Audiologist to determine how much time the user spends in each environment and to look at conversation activity in each environment. It also appears that Oticon defines three environments for this reporting “Simple”, “Moderate”, and “Complex”.

Personally, I wish that Oticon would include a method of determining the “active” environment on their app if for nothing else I could determine that the sensors are working and possibly gain a better understanding of when the program settings are being revised.

[Volusiano]

@TimMac

Oticon chooses to have one “General” program but it too also has various environments that are used to save the program settings. They just choose to try and present it in a method that is more “understandable” to general public and HIS. For instance, they use “Personalization Questions” or ACT to set some of the program settings. They also have fewer environments “Easy” and “Difficult” that are used to store the settings.

I would like to make some clarification to some of the things said above so that people don’t get the wrong idea that the Oticon environment setup is too simple.

It may seem like they only have 2 environments, but that’s not true. The Easy and Difficult are just the 2 extreme groupings they use to let the user decide on how the user wants to classify actually up to 5 environments → Very Simple, Simple, Moderate, Complex and Very Complex. See the screenshot below for reference. It lets the user tell Genie 2 which of the 5 they think are on the Easy side and which are on the Difficult side.

But even the 5 environment classifications are just symbolic. It doesn’t imply that there are only 2 set of parameters for Easy and Difficult, nor does it imply that there are only 5 sets of parameters for the 5 classifications. If you look at the Neural Noise Suppression values for the 2 groupings, that is just the maximum noise attenuation that Genie 2 lets the user choose. It does not mean that they are the only 2 fixed values that are going to be applied.

The Oticon aid will actually evaluate the current environment and applies the appropriate value to deal with the noise estimate for that environment, and this is not just 5 fixed values for the 5 environment classifications. It can be at a very fine granularity and it is continuously adjusted. The scanning and analysis of the environment is done 500 times by the Oticon aid over 24 different frequency channels, and the noise estimate is calculated and the noise reduction is applied accordingly. I remember reading, however, that they don’t want to change the noise reduction value more often than 2 seconds. So unless there has been a significant enough change in the environment for more than 2 seconds, the noise reduction level is kept intact.

@TimMac

The issue I have with Oticon is there is no way to determine what “Environment” the system thinks you’re in as opposed to Phonak where you can use the App.

Personally, I wish that Oticon would include a method of determining the “active” environment on their app if for nothing else I could determine that the sensors are working and possibly gain a better understanding of when the program settings are being revised.

As explained above, although the environment grouping as seen in Genie 2 may appear to be binary (Easy or Difficult), or the environment classification as seen in Genie 2 may appear to be quinary (a system of 5 digits), in reality, it is at a much finer granularity than that. In the Oticon whitepaper even going way back for the OPN (see the screenshot of the wordings below at the bottom), Oticon has very clearly stated the transitions between simple and complex environments are not points on a line, but rather continuous and smooth. The writeup below in the OPN whitepaper explains the difference between how the configurations of the system can be infinitely continuous and smooth, versus the “mode switch” operation of other brands’ aids where the potential audible artifacts of mode switches can be heard.

I wouldn’t be surprised if Oticon engineers in the development stage of the aids can get access to detailed data on exactly where in the environmental scale their aid’s noise estimator fall into so they can monitor how accurate their noise estimator is. And like you, I would love to have access to that real time information as well, if nothing then just to satisfy my own curiosity. But I also fully understand why it makes no sense and can cause a lot of confusion and even misunderstandings and even wrong conclusions if Oticon decides to put such complicated and unnecessary information into the hands of the users.

Sometimes, less is more. What matters to the end user is to prove that the hearing aids work and work well. It just muddles the water too much and can even be detrimental to arm the users with an excess amount of unnecessary information, like what kind of environment the hearing aid thinks it is in. What if the users don’t agree with the Oticon determination of what kind of environment it is, simply because the users don’t have enough insight into the logics and calculations that go into this determination that might explain and justify it? There are just more landmines that can do more harm than good to share this kind of detailed information unnecessarily.

[DaveL]

My Phonak Audeo Paradise P90R’s switch programs using auto 4. I don’t know what program they are in unless I use the APP.

If I use the APP myself it tells me what program Im in if I adjust the program. Once in, it’s locked in that program.

I’ve finally learned that two reports help me understand setup better. My hearing aid practitioner sometimes provides Target Owner Report and Target Pro Report. No other audi did that, and I wish they had.

[1Bluejay]

Weirdly, I’ve never detected my Phonaks switching from General (default program) to say, Music, but it does reduce volume in noisy places. I think my Speech in Loud Noise is kind of like a “pacifier” in case I don’t feel like the Phonaks are helping me understand speech in noise. Thing is, even that dedicated program is hardly better. It just lowers ALL VOLUME: music, ambient clatter, folks at the table with me. DOH. That’s what appealed to me about the Oticon. I honestly think it would’ve been better at speech if set up properly.

Dang if it just let me down in the Android BT connectivity area tho. No getting around that one unless maybe I change my phone?

All of this discussion about the technical capabilities of these aids makes me wistful… I highly doubt that the typical audiologist takes the time to understand it. And whatever training they are getting from the company sales reps simply does not cover the growing range of issues with today’s hearing aids:

• Optimal settings & programs for all types of environments
• Bluetooth connectivity with iPhone, Android, laptops, accessories
• Phone apps and how to use them
• External mic accessories - how to set them up to optimize result
• Chargers (for rechargeables) - yet another complication needing firmware updates
• Impact of molds vs range of tips used on the speaker
• Wire vs tube issues for wear and tear

I’ve said it before 1,000 times: the hearing aid business is crying out for a Geek Squad who - independent from the HA makers! - knows these instruments intimately. They don’t have an agenda to promote one maker over another. Their goal is to get a person set up for THE BEST hearing experience given their lifestyle and budget. They would be tasked with follow-ons after the aids are fitted: settings, programs, phone app, accessories, etc.

Would folks pay for such a service? I would think so! HA makers make the mistake of trying to keep everything in-house with Customer/Tech Support workers who simply don’t have the tools to get the job done. How can you try various things to fix an aid over the phone (unless the Oticon RemoteCare takes it to that level!). If a hearing clinic doesn’t hire a Geek to take this on, the job falls to the audiologist. That may not be the best use of their time!

When I was in Marketing at Oracle ages ago, the internet was starting to take off. We were tasked with mastering the entire chain of web page design, marketing message, click-thru and data analysis of that activity. It was absurd! I’m a good marketing writer - not a tech person or data analysis pro. Same analogy with hearing aids. They have grown far beyond their basic “BOOST VOLUME!” days. So now we are left with a basketful of redundant, conflicting devices and no clue, no training and no one to help us put the solution together.

[DaveL]

I was trying to hear a man talking in his office. 6 feet away. Couldn’t hear. Moved closer…

Went for coffee. It was noisy. Maybe 8 people with two talking loudly. they were 15? feet away. Noisier one had her back to me; couldn’t see the face of the one across the table. Realized I could hear! Checked the App. Took a while. myPhonak said I was in “Speech in Car” when I could finally check.
Noisy people left. “Calm” was the program. Bothersome HVAC noise, and no one close enough talking. A minute later I checked and it was “Speech in Noise” I could hear the HVAC noise better. (Cafeteria is absolutely horribly noisy at noon when it’s full.)

Wearing my Phonak Audeo Paradise P90 R’s is extremely stressful. I have no idea how to make them better.

(Question…does anyone use their myPhonak for remote care? I haven’t. If I did I don’t think that workman’s compensation would pay the audi for the work they would do.)

Edit. I googled myPhonak App in PhonakPro. The main topic told Audis how to set up hearing aids using myPhonak. I expected it would be more helpful for us as users. In stead it emphasized a feature my Audi had no use for.

I wish the Audi could have been more helpful. He could have used the APP to make setup changes when I was in an environment where I couldn’t hear

[1Bluejay]

@DaveL

does anyone use their myPhonak for remote care?

Um. Er. I had no idea it was even an option with myPhonak! I have never been able to make use of the phone app cuz I have been forced to own & use two (redundant) pairs of rechargeable Phonak Lumity Life aids - just to get through a simple 24-hr period.

O’course y’all know by now that even tho Phonak didn’t come out with a battery-operated aid till this year, when i got my aids 2 yrs ago, it was only rechargeables for the latest release. And the myPhonak app (oddly?!) would only allow one pair of hearing aids to be controlled by the app. Not TWO pairs as with the Roger ON iN - well, that is if you BUY the two sets of licenses at $2 grand each. Then you can control more than one pair of aids with one of your two (redundant) Roger ON iNs.

That was one thing that intrigued me about the Oticon Intent 1: RemoteCare. If it really worked for adjusting and setting up programs and settings, it would be amazing.

After my failed Oticon Trial, I even pinged my previous audi (located across the country) to ask if he’d be interested in being my “RemoteCare” contact after selling and setting up a pair of Oticon Intents for me. Um. NOPE. He said the pandemic taught him that altho patients may LOVE the idea of remote care, audis like him feel that nothing can replace face-to-face time.

[1Bluejay]

@Volusiano

Sometimes, less is more. What matters to the end user is to prove that the hearing aids work and work well. It just muddles the water too much and can even be detrimental to arm the users with an excess amount of unnecessary information, like what kind of environment the hearing aid thinks it is in. What if the users don’t agree with the Oticon determination of what kind of environment it is, simply because the users don’t have enough insight into the logics and calculations that go into this determination that might explain and justify it? There are just more landmines that can do more harm than good to share this kind of detailed information unnecessarily.

I am the last person who wants to be burdened with technical stuff I don’t understand, but the fact that the Oticon Intents I trialed were horrific with the BT on my Samsung Galaxy Z Flip4 phone just plain BUGGED ME. Then I stumbled across this loooooong article on the implications of Auracast, and in the back of my mind I wondered if the Oticons’ LE Audio was somehow tangled in a web of Auracast-enabled stuff in my house or even neighborhood?

Could that have explained the ceaseless and endless dis-connections of these aids on my phone? I wonder if Auracast is going to be yet another complexity that users of hearing aids + cell phones will have to contend with. What if the aids think we want to connect to some kind of public audio feed and then interrupt the BT connection with our phone calls to grab that signal?

I’m absolutely positive my audiologist would have ZERO answer. The unknown possibilities of Auracast would make me shy away from any future aids that are Auracast-enabled. If you or anyone here has any simple explanation, I’d be very grateful.

[d_Wooluf]

@1Bluejay

I wondered if the Oticons’ LE Audio was somehow tangled in a web of Auracast-enabled stuff in my house or even neighborhood?

Do you have a bunch of Auracast-enabled stuff in your home. Not likely unless you’re a tech junkie.

@1Bluejay

I wonder if Auracast is going to be yet another complexity that users of hearing aids + cell phones will have to contend

Says someone who managed to make sense of Roger licensing. Samsung phones seem to have issues with LE Audio right now. It’s new technology. I don’t know, but I think the bugs will be ironed out over time. I still want to at least try it!

[Volusiano]

I wouldn’t be too quick to blame BT LE Audio and Auracast for your BT connection woes. I have no idea what kind of wireless connection protocol your Samsung Galaxy Z Flip4 phone supports. Are you sure that your phone has BT LE Audio compatibility? If not, then it’s possible that the Intent is connecting to your phone via ASHA, because you didn’t mention the need to use the Oticon ConnectClip to connect between the Intent and the phone via standard (legacy) BT.

I’ve heard that Android phones with ASHA compatibility are spotty in terms of providing reliable ASHA connection with ASHA compatible hearing aids. That’s usually because the ASHA support between different phone brands and models is still flaky and inconsistent. Some ASHA Android phones work well with certain ASHA hearing aids, others not quite well, depending on the ASHA implementation on each phone, which may not be 100% in sync.

Unfortunately, ASHA was originally intended as a solution to connect between Android phones and HAs without using an intermediary streaming device like the ConnectClip. However, it seems like it is short-lived, and before it has a chance to work out all the kinks and bugs, it’s now being phased out in favor of BT LE Audio. This ironically makes it even plausible that many Android phone makers might have decided not to spend the effort no improving and stabilizing their ASHA support anymore, because they now want to focus on providing support for BT LE Audio and stabilizing it instead, since ASHA no longer has a viable long term future use anymore anyway.

If you want more reliable wireless BT connection for now, and the ASHA or even BT LE Audio is flaky between the Intent and your phone, I would recommend settling for using the ConnectClip to connect via standard (legacy) BT for now, because it’s been around for a long time and all the bugs have been worked out between them. Even the More and Real (predecessors of the Intent) have had a lot of troubles with using the ConnectClip with standard BT devices, and it took Oticon a long time to figure out and fix all the bugs. But at least for now, the latest firmware updates for the Real and the More (and hopefully also implemented on the Intent) have rendered the ConnectClip connection with standard BT devices more reliable now.

I wouldn’t discount the BT LE Audio feature that will be AuraCast ready with a new firmware update on the Intent a liability. Instead, it should be one of the key reasons that would justify an upgrade to the Intent, because the BT LE Audio enables the Intent to be future proof in terms of wireless connection. But like all brand new protocols, it takes time to flush out all the bugs before it becomes reliable. So in the mean time, to get the reliability you need for wireless connection, fall back on a proven standard for it, the standard legacy BT and use devices like the ConnectClip that support that standard.

[WhiteHat]

@1Bluejay

wondered if the Oticons’ LE Audio was somehow tangled in a web of Auracast-enabled stuff in my house or even neighborhood?

Maybe not auracast, but it uses the same band as MANY other systems like microwave ovens, wifi, really it is countless. The systems are in many cases designed to try to work around each other but some like microwave ovens are very simple and very powerful relative to bt.

My microwave oven interferes with bt and wifi all the time.

WH

[WhiteHat]

Did you ever figure out what was interfering with your tv watching?

WH

[Baltazard]

@WhiteHat

Did you ever figure out what was interfering with your tv watching?

If I do recall, it was her ( @1Bluejay ) neighbour’s boat radio equipment that created the interference, I could be wong.

[1Bluejay]

@d_Wooluf

Samsung phones seem to have issues with LE Audio right now. It’s new technology. I don’t know, but I think the bugs will be ironed out over time.

I SURE HOPE SO!!

And yes, we are a house FULL of techie junk. We are converting all our home automation stuff from Crestron (industrial strength) to Savant (user-friendly, app on phone). So maybe the Oticon’s LE Audio was getting tangled in the web here?

It’s simply way over my head.

[1Bluejay]

GEEZ! Then things are gonna get a lot more exciting for all of us who rely on solid BT connectivity with our aids. We have so much hifi and home automation clutter here it fills a “Wizard’s closet”. There’s a guy here working on it right now - rewiring and replacing the old stuff that got fried with a lightning strike last summer.

If our appliances add to the heap o’ issues, it’s concerning.

[1Bluejay]

Honestly, we never got a 100% certain diagnosis. I totally suspected it was our neighbor’s boat. While that has long departed the scene, it seems that the best “fix” was to get a super long cable and place my Roger mic clear across the room from where I even sit. As far from the Wizard’s closet full of home automation, the ADT security system and hifi stuff in there as possible.

I’ve had no issues since, go figure! But now we are embarked on replacing that closet full of stuff - mostly old Crestron automation system - with Savant. Something tells me these new devices WILL be Auracast-enabled, interfere with wifi and cause even more riddles, mysteries and enigmas for my hearing aids.

On a brighter note: I’m likely going to buy the Phonak 312-BATTERY aids. I have too much going on in life for the redundancy caused by rechargeables. To be honest, if these Phonaks had JUST GIVEN ME 24 HRS a day use like the Oticons, I’d have only needed a single pair. No redundant chargers, Rogers and what-all.

[Baltazard]

@1Bluejay

On a brighter note: I’m likely going to buy the Phonak 312-BATTERY aids.

I thought you’ve left Phonak for Oticon!!!

[1Bluejay]

NO. In fact after just 3 days of my 2-week Oticon trial I threw in the towel. I could NEVER get BT to stablize on the phone. Was going thru yada yada of “forget device”, re-pair, re-connect, turn LE ON, hey that didn’t work, turn it OFF, now aid shows “disconnected”, let’s do it all over again like I have nothing else to do all day, and REPEAT 4 MORE TIMES just to make a call.

[Baltazard]

Hearing-wise, were the oticon HA better than phonak’s?
Have you tried an apple iphone/ipad with the oticon? (oticon made for iphone MiFi)

[1Bluejay]

It wasn’t a fair test cuz the Oticons were set up in a crazy RUSH as a FREE trial. I didn’t think the audi had invested a lot of time and concern to make the test a success. I liked that the Oticons REMOVED a lot of ambient sound around me, but speech was actually significantly more difficult for me to comprehend than with my Phonaks. I have an Android phone, so iPhone would be of no help to me.

If you scroll WAY WAY above, you’ll nee the side-by-side Pros and Cons of Phonak vs Oticon. In addition to the BT instability, I have to say that Oticon also has no battery version of the Intent. I simply NEED batteries in order to take long trips and go places where there is either spotty power or even NO power (think: camping!). I feel tethered and constrained with rechargeables and the redundancy they have caused in my life cuz most rechargeable aids simply DO NOT provide even 24 hours of use in between charges.

Do you think a busy executive like the Pres of Phonak would like to rely on a critical medical device that only gives him 17 hrs of use per day - no matter if he’s flying to a conference, delivering a keynote speech, enjoying a week of trekking in the hills or what-all? Yeah. He’d be like ME. Finding a pair of aids that only need a battery and last many DAYS before they need changing.

Or maybe he’s a couch potato who’s awake 14 hrs a day, hates to camp, never travels abroad, and doesn’t want a landfill full of batteries.