Is this as good as it gets?

Hearing Aids
#11

JKallears said in part…

First off… I’m not a Audi or BC-HIS, nor do I play one on T.V. That being said…

A HA does NOT improve and/or fix ones ability to hear and understand sounds within certain frequencies. It only increases the volume in the frequency range that you’re able to understand anyways.

As a example: if the natural unaided hearing in your ear has problems recognizing the f, s and th sounds (which are between 4,000 - 7,000 Hz), then NO amount of amplification is going to help you understand them. If you can’t hear or understand those letter sounds in that frequency range… then you CAN’T hear or understand them!

Another way of looking at it is this: If you can’t swim and you’re in 20 foot of water, using a pair of “swim fins” on your feet isn’t going to help you solve the obvious. The only thing that’s going to happen is you’ll be going under with a set on fins on.

Here’s a link to a web site page that explains it much better than I can. Part way down it talks about (and has diagrams on) Hearing Loss and Speech Intelligibility. I hope this answers some of your questions.

http://www.hdhearing.com/learning/part2

Shi-Ku Chishiki ShiKu.Chishiki@Gmail.com

#12

I take issue again with the way you explain this. You never mention hair cell damage, which I think is your underlying intent of someone not being able to hear certain sounds. A response like this is very misleading and confusing, and I for one wish you would stop posting it like this.

Reading this post as written causes people to wonder why anyone would ever buy hearing aids, and I know that’s not your intent.

#13

You have provided a lot of information. I do have a few questions to be able to address your concerns.

  • What is your speech discrimination score in quiet ? Sometimes this is referred to as word recognition score as well and is given in %. Usually 25 to 50 single syllable words are presented at a comfortable level and your would repeat them back. This test can really help determine your level of success with hearing aids and I would be happy to explain why.

  • Same as above, what is your speech discrimination score in noise also known as SIN test ?

  • What condition has caused your hearing loss ?

  • Is this your first time with hearing aids ? How long have you had this degree of hearing loss ?

I should add that sharp sounds should not be painful and this should be addressed right away. You are not expecting too much. You do have to be 100% sure that everything possible (and unfortunately within budget) that all options are being explored to help you.

#14

Yes, you have made this assertion before and I have to say once again that you are wrong. Selective amplification can indeed improve word recognition (for some people).

It takes only a single counter-example to disprove any theorem. My own experience is that counter example. When I boost the higher frequencies, where my hearing has become defective, my word recognition improves markedly, approaching 100% in non-noisy environments. :cool:

#15

[quote=Shi-Ku Chishiki]JKallears said in part…
First off… I’m not a Audi or BC-HIS, nor do I play one on T.V. That being said…

A HA does NOT improve and/or fix ones ability to hear and understand sounds within certain frequencies. It only increases the volume in the frequency range that you’re able to understand anyways.

As a example: if the natural unaided hearing in your ear has problems recognizing the f, s and th sounds (which are between 4,000 - 7,000 Hz), then NO amount of amplification is going to help you understand them. If you can’t hear or understand those letter sounds in that frequency range… then you CAN’T hear or understand them!
end quote

Here is an explanation of speech audiometry by asha
http://www.asha.org/public/hearing/testing/assess.htm
((((((Speech Audiometry
Speech audiometry includes determining speech reception threshold (SRT) and testing of word recognition . Speech reception threshold testing determines the faintest level at which a person can hear and correctly repeat easy-to-distinguish two-syllable (spondaic) words. Examples of spondaic words are “baseball”, “ice cream”, “hot dog”, “outside”, and “airplane.”. Spondaic words have equal stress on each syllable. The individual repeats words ( or points to pictures) as the audiologist’ s voice gets softer and softer. The faintest level, in decibels, at which 50% of the two-syllable words are correctly identified, is recorded as the Speech Reception Threshold (SRT). A separate SRT is determined for each ear.

Tests of word recognition attempt to evaluate how well a person can distinguish words at a comfortable loudness level. It relates to how clearly one can hear single-syllable (monosyllabic) words when speech is comfortably loud. Examples of words used in this test are “come”, “high”, “knees”, “chew.” In this test, the audiologist’ s voice (or a recording) stays at the same loudness level throughout. The individual being tested repeats words (or points to pictures). The percentage of words correctly repeated is recorded for each ear.

Thus, a score of 100% would indicate that every word was repeated correctly. A score of 0% would suggest no understanding.

Word recognition is typically measured in quiet. For specific purposes, word recognition may also be measured in the presence of recorded background noise that can also be delivered through the audiometer.)))))

I believe you are mixing up some info. Your word recognition scores are determined (with amplification) to a comfortable loudness level. If with this amplification in quiet you still cannot distinguish (then) you supposedly will not be able to distinguish at whatever level of amplification. I have read that the 2 basic symptoms of sensorineural loss that make it so that you cannot distinguish, that cannot be remedied by a hearing aid are, loss of frequency resolution, and loss of temporal/spectral resolution.
http://www.hearingseminars.com/introductiontofm/
If you do not want to hear about FM and signal to noise ratios, skip to Basic audiology

#16

JMHO, you aren’t getting as much from the HA as you should expect. Depends on which HA are best for you and much also depends on who is doing the programming. In my case who programs the HA made all the difference in the world. I can understand speech, even young girls, in large rooms w/ vaulted ceilings and also w/ one pair of HA in a very noisy environment. Again…it depended on who programmed the HA. Home theater is wonderful again. Also, no more subtitles for evening news on TV.

For me, it has been a year long journey…time consuming and taking alot of patience. At one point I had to go to the Phonak site, see what the audi could control and then back to audi to say “did you do this and did you do that.” She had not. I’ve now in just this one year been to 3 audiologists. One was completely useless even 'tho the rep for a company w/ many different locations and covering multiple states.

Then I still has unresolved issues and my audi had no answer except “that’s the way it is for everyone.” So I went to different audi. She sent HA back to Phonak on Monday. This office called today, and the HA already back. Phonak had to replace 3 components in ea HA. I get to pick them up tomorrow! Can’t wait to have my “ears” back and see if problems all resolved and in fact could be even better than ever w/ this pair of HA.

Compare your numbers from your audiogram to mine. Will either your hearing or mine ever be “perfect” even w/ top HA and best programming? No. Definitely not. As for me, most of my hearing difficulties have been resolved. The rest soon will be…one way or the other. Programming will be checked when I pick the HA up tomorrow.

#17

It’s quite obvious Jay_Man_2 and JCHunter don’t like the fact that I post on this web site, as I quote Jay_Man_2 in part, ie: “I for one wish you would stop posting.” :frowning:

Bowing to their wishes, from now on when I post I’ll make sure that anything I say will NOT create a controversy… or mislead anyone as I have been accused of. :confused:

Of course the only problem is, there be very little that I can say then… but so be it. :mad:

After all, I don’t want to have the holy wrath of JM2 and JCH to be brought down upon me. :eek:

Thanks to all of those who have let me post in the past though. :slight_smile:

Shi-Ku Chishiki ShiKu.Chishiki@Gmail.com

#18

You need to get a little ‘thicker skin’. You cut the quote from Jay_Man short, when you add the rest of his context “…it like this.” The meaning is completely changed.

While the article you linked to was a good one, I would have to agree with the others that you are not interpeting what it says accurately. Speech is not a simple sequence of pure tones. It is a sequence of a number of pure tones. A modern digital instrument can do far more then simply amplify pure tones at different gains, it can ‘lock onto’ & amplify a sequence that is meaningful (i.e. ch, th, and other hard to hear combinations for many).

#19

Please don’t quote me out of context. And don’t be offended. But as you can see, I’m not the only one who thinks that you’re communicating on this particular issue in a very misleading way. I just don’t want others to read posts like that from you or anyone else, and perhaps make a bad decision that it’s not worth even investigating hearing aids further.

#20

I have absolutely no objection to your posting on this web site. Please continue. :slight_smile:

My concern is limited solely to your assertions that sound amplification can’t improve word recognition because there is far too much evidence that it can and does (for many people).

#21

Wait until you see my “politically correct” posts… starting with:

Help! Not coping at all well with hearing aids!

Shi-Ku (Trying to be politically correct in his posts from now on) Chishiki ShiKu.Chishiki@Gmail.com

#23

I continue to be amazed at how the technology has surpassed our ability to fit it correctly. Costco rexton hearing aids better than Phonak? I DON’T THINK SO. I don’t even fit Phonak but I have worked with rexton and I know what that is. The majority of us that have done this for 40 years know that there is far more to fitting hearing aids than just hitting, BEST FIT. There is no degree out there that can replace EXPERIENCE. I would probably look for someone that has been in business for a long time by themself instead of going to a newbie with a still wet degree. That audi that worked with you needs some help. Find someone with experience. That will give you the best chance of being fit properly. It’s sort of like flying. As long as the weather is good and the sky is blue the young pilot can get you home. But let the weather turn bad and you’ll want the old veteran who has weathered the storms and made it home. Good luck. Buck

#24

jay man: yes it was hair cell damage that caused my hearing loss, but I have no idea how that happened. 20 years ago, my hearing was still excellent.
HIP Matt: according to most recent audiogram, SRT is 60dB and 50 dB
WRS 80 dB (92%) nd 75 db(88%)
MCL 75 dB and 70 dB
UCL 90 dB and 85 dB
These are second pair I have kept, though several tried.
Shan: according to audiologists, my word recognition in their quiet room is excellent, which confuses me when in the real world i have so much trouble.
Carolo: YES I agree that the fitter/programmer makes all the difference. Having been through several “professional” audiologists at fancy Dr offices, who were impatient and incompetent, I have had best experience with “dispensers.” Buck: the Costco guy IS a veteran of many years, and seems knowledgeable about his products. He is not an audiologist, which is fine with me.
So the Coscto is far inferior to the Phonak - OK - but maybe due to the Phonak audi it was uncomfortable, ill-fitting, and the sound quality was terrible. This “high end” Costco is much better than the two Phonaks they tried.
I don’t think it is specifics such as F, S, or Th sounds that I miss - it is whole words and sentences. There are many voices I can only make out occasional words in a conversation.
I appreciate all these responses, but still not sure how to proceed.
It doesn’t seem amplification helps, because then some sounds hurt.

#25

Gee…

…and there are some people on the forum who proclaim “amplification” is the end all to solving the worlds problems with HOH’s.

Shi-Ku (Making sure to quote all of “JKallears” post so I wouldn’t be accused of doing so out of context.) Chishiki :wink: :smiley: ShiKu.Chishiki@Gmail.com (This is getting more fun by the minute!)

#26

JKallears clarified that he had hair cell damage. As I said at least once before, if you’d have mentioned that in your posts, I’d have had no issue.:rolleyes:

I think we all know that hearing aids aren’t the be-all end-all. Now I just wish I’d have found a way earlier to communicate with you about this so that you wouldn’t be reacting so childishly now. At least I’ve now learned how to use the “ignore” buddy list. :stuck_out_tongue:

#27

Okay boys, we know you have issues, but it is now time to move on…

#28

Good job Confused … tell them to behave and stop picking on each other … well, one to stop picking on everything the other says anyway. Let’s get back to pleasant and stop acting like old clucking hens

#29

You just don’t give up do you? CHILDISH !! I’ve been fairly nice and low key in the way I’ve handled things so far, but it seems like YOU want to up the ante. OK, now I’ll get out the big guns.

First off, I would have thought those who read my post would have automatically linked (in their mind), JKallears “cell damage” to what I said without me specifically having to mention it.

Yes… you were WRONG in the way you decided to “put me in my place”, (so I am accepting your above apology)… and NO I’m NOT thin skinned. You could have either PM or e-mailed me, that’s why I use ShiKu.Chishiki@Gmail.com when I sign off.

If I had said something wrong and/or posted a link that was inappropriate, then by all means let me know. I don’t have a problem with that. I’ve been wrong before and have NO doubt in the future they’ll be occasions when I am again. No harm… no foul. I’m more than glad to learn by my mistakes.

Your last sentence said: “At least I’ve now learned how to use the “ignore” buddy list.” That’s great. At least something good has come from all of this, so YOU have learned from me after all. I’m truly sorry though that you’ve written me off your list because I do feel that I have some good thoughts, ideas and even links to other DEAF/HOH web sites that might bring insight into our world of HA’s and HOH.

Shi-Ku (I’m now going back into being by original “Good Guy” self before this whole stupid mess for which I’m sorry started.) Chishiki ShiKu.Chishiki@Gmail.com

#30

Ohhhhhhhhhhh…I cannot stop laughing !!!

I would almost be sorry to see this end :smiley:

#31

I’ve PM’ed Shi-Ku Chishiki, and wish to apologize to the group for any communication that contributed to the deterioration of this thread.

Shi-Ku Chishiki posts valuable information and experiences to the board, and I hope that with the dialog I’ve opened with him on PM we can move past this.