Is it worthwhile to upgrade to Oticon More level 1 instead of 2?

Hearing Aids
#99

No worry, @mingus. It’s not at all about accusing you of anything, everyone says something wrong when they meant something else all the times. It’s just for clarification because many folks can be reading this, so it’s more about setting things straight to avoid misunderstandings from other folks, that’s all.

I think the full effect as mentioned in the bold part above simply infers to the “open” paradigm while being able to still achieve a more balanced sound scene. Naturally if you set to Full Directional then you won’t get the full effect of the open paradigm. You’ll hear less or weaker sounds from the sides and back. On the other hand, if you set to Fixed Omni, then you’d basically employ only the one mic that’s set for the omnidirectional pickup and you won’t be using the other back-cardioid mic at all.

The Spatial Balancer uses the combination of both mics to do MVDR beam forming to create the null-directions to attenuate dominant noise sources and keep them in the background of the sound scene. By going Fixed Omni, you’ll have probably disabled the Spatial Balancer functionality altogether and you may end up hearing more noise than you bargain for. However, the DNN for Difficult Environment would still be in full operation and you’ll probably get the Neural Noise Suppression like before, although the sound scene would not be as well balanced as before so that’s probably what they mean by not getting the “full effect” when not in Neural Automatic.

But of course, for a music program, you’d still want Fixed Omni and even turn off the Neural Noise Suppression altogether. In this situation, however, you’d still be able to set the values for the Virtual Outer Ear functionality.

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#100

Here we go, again!
We smothered this topic to pieces in the Oticon Neural Noise Suppression topic back in September.

Again, this was all explained in September.
Don’t crank it up to 10 just 'cause you can.
It’s there as a reserve, for those that really need it…
As you’ve pointed out, cranking it up, can & will result in “suppression” of sounds other than what your primary focus is.

Being a musician, you could equate that to turning your Marshall amp up to 10 just because you can.
Can you say “clipping”, and distortion & feedback?

Genie 2 fitting software determines the setting based on your personal script.

#101

@SpudGunner -> I believe you’ve had it at 10 dB before for a while, no, Jim? But I think you did change it back to 8 maybe? What was your reason? And by the way, if you have a program to spare, just do it in that program only so that if you don’t like it, you won’t be stuck with it until your next audi visit again.

If/when I get my More when my OPN 1s give up on me, for sure I’m going to try it out to see what all the fuss is about.

@flashb1024 -> yeah, I know we beat this horse to death, Flash. But I still don’t like it whenever I think about it. So I took the chance when @SpudGunner opened that door so I can whine about it again. :slight_smile:

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#102

You know, :zap:Flash :zap:, it’s probably just because I’m not as smart as you with this technical stuff - I stil don’t understand it very well. I’d like to see whether I can get a better handle on it. I hope that’s not a problem?

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#103

Makes sense. Thanks!

#104

Can you please elaborate here? My impression was that MoreSound Booster’s effect was all around, not directional.

(Btw, I didn’t take your previous clarifying reply as accusational, not in the least. I appreciated it.)

My Whisper AI trial vs. Oticon More
Oticon More Sound Booster Vs Speech in Noise
#105

Attached here is a video from Oticon when they introduced the OpenSound Booster in the OPN S. They simply changed the name to MoreSound Booster for the More, but it’s the same thing. This video has Don Schum explaining what the OpenSound Booster does explicitly, so that’s why I’m showing this video to you instead of the other MoreSound Booster videos that don’t do as good a job in explaining its feature, specifically the directionality feature.

#106

Yes, @Volusiano, I once had my NNS values set to the max values for both Easy and Difficult scenarios, but because I’m so rarely in truly difficult situations, I don’t think I really had an opportunity to fully appreciate what Neural Noise Suppression was actually doing. I admit to having been swayed by the comments here about muddying up the background noise, and that was what really drove me to reducing the cap down a notch.

To be honest, I couldn’t describe for you now what, if any, differences I perceived.

At that time all my program slots were taken up by things that were useful to me - including the legacy Music program. Now, because I have no use for the new MyMusic program, I have a slot to play with, so I’ll ask my audiologist to install the program you’re suggesting, so I can compare at will the effects of maxed-out NNS.

#107

Well, thanks again. Given your posts, you must have one helluva awesome library.

Looking more closely, I noticed something interesting; what is your take on this? . . .

In the Schum video at ~37 sec, it shows an environment with individuals and groups around the user, and then he segues into his description of the Booster. The environment shown in the illustration corresponds to the least what MoreSound Intelligence defines as “moderate”. In this video:

In describing the "everyday environments’ the Booster helps with, the audio/video samples are a conference room with a group talking around the table; a moving noisy commuter train with voices and phone calls around; and, a restaurant with background music, a running air conditioner, and rustling of plates and glasses. I would think that, again, these environments would be at the minimum classified as “moderate” but more likely “complex”. Yet the verbiage refers to these as “simple situations”.

The Q&A here adds:

In response to the question:

Does the MoreSound Booster shift the process to apply high noise reduction just like open sound booster does?

The answer given is:

The MoreSound Booster works similarly to the OpenSound Booster in these ways: it is applied only by the user through the ON app; it works in more quiet environments; but the MoreSound Booster will give the user a 4dB improvement in Signal-to-noise ratio (only a 3dB improvement was available with OpenSound Booster). If however, the Neural Noise Suppression – Easy is already set to 4dB in Genie, there is no additional benefit for the user with the Booster in the ON app.

MoreSound Booster does NOT [their caps] help more in the most difficult listening environments, such as a busy restaurant or cocktail party. In those situations the prescribed settings will, for most users, provide the maximum help.

And in response to the question:

Does it mean that the booster manually overrides the DNN simple from 0 -> 4dB?

The answer is:

Yes! If the user chooses to activate the MoreSound Booster in a fairly quiet environment, and the default setting of the Neural Noise Suppression- Easy is set at 0dB, then the user will have a 4dB reduction by the DNN, and with more front focus from the Spatial Balancer function (non-speech sound sources, especially from the back and sides, are reduced more).

Simple. More quiet. Fairly quiet. Easy. Although the environments shown are anything but. Is all this telling us that MoreSound Boost is only engaged in what Genie shows as Simple which is under the MoreSound Intelligence - Easy environment?

#108

@mingus: You have done a lot of homework! The information and observations you’re posting are answering a lot of questions I had about MoreSound Booster.

Thank you.

#109

Thanks for sharing that Q&A doc, @mingus. It’s the first time I saw that doc, so kudos for finding and sharing it.

When I see conflicting information from Oticon about things, why am I not so surprised? One personal observation I have that I will share with you, is that sometimes I’m not very impressed with these Oticon reps who delivered these webinars or training, etc that I read through (or watch through). Generally, I find their information to be OK, but I also sense a lot of parakeet’ing, as if they don’t really have a master level understanding of the subject matter, and they simply repeat something that they heard and possibly in the process skew their answers or present conflicting information that can confuse the readers. So I just use common sense when something doesn’t sound right coming from those people.

Below are some points I want to discuss:

  1. They say MSB “works in more quiet environments.” -> Who would want to bother go to the ON app to turn on MSB if they’re in quiet/easy environments. If they make such a statement, they MUST back it up and elaborate in details why MSB would be needed at all in quiet/easy environments to justify that statement so that it’d make sense. Don’t just make a stupid statement like that and not offer any plausible elaborated justification. Where’s the common sense?

  2. All they really say in that Q&A about the MSB, beside the stupid statement above, is that if the Easy NNS is set to 0 dB in P1, then MSB will change it to 4 dB. Otherwise, if the P1 is already at 4 dB, then MSB leaves it alone at 4 dB. OK, so the only new info is that MSB forces Easy NNS to 4 dB if not already set to that value in P1. But again… WHY use MSB to mess around with only Easy NNS and not do anything extra to help with Difficult NNS? Who cares if MSB changes Easy NNS to 4 dB (if not already done so)? Who cares to even enable MSB at all if they’re in an Easy Environment?

  3. So they say that MSB does NOT help with Difficult NNS at all. Even with MSB enabled, Difficult NNS will continue to use whatever value it is set to in P1. OK, that’s fine. But if MSB doesn’t do anything extra to help in Difficult Environment, then why introduce MSB at all??? And have those people even watched the Oticon videos about OSB and MSB where all indications pointed to a Full Directional value for the Directionality Settings? And it also seems that we have users on this forum confirm to have noticed the Full Directional effect when they turn on MSB.

So all I can say to the Q&A doc with regard to their MSB answers specifically is “Where do these people (who wrote this Q&A doc) come from??? Are they bonafide Oticon reps/trainers?” Their answers are so incomplete that it’s not only UNHELPFUL, but it’s also CONFUSING and FULL OF CONFLICTING info with other Oticon information on videos. So I can only dismiss these answers and don’t lend them any credibility, unless their answers can prove otherwise.

#110

Exactly, @Volusiano … exactly!

#111

Ouch. All fair (and revealing) questions. My take, at the risk of another forum faux pas . . .

I spent my career in Silicon Valley in a highly ethical engineering driven company. The sales organization would (understandably) get apoplectic over lab engineers talking to clients due to our tendency to be overly technical and to even volunteer everything we thought was not perfect about our own products (just like in life, the engineer’s perfectionist curse that our spouses laugh at us about). Those in marketing and training were tasked with interpreting lab work into language sales people and customers could understand, very challenging for people whose skillsets were in communications and relationships. Drove the labs crazy. So each division also had a small team of lab engineers whose job it was to bridge this divide (and to directly engage our major clients when needed). I had this job many times . . .

You are right, reps and trainers “don’t really have a master level understanding.” And they never will. That is not only impractical, but probably for the manufacturer, it is even counter-productive. So the courseware and training delivery on audiologyonline.com remains geared to those either still in school or new in practice (my audiologist thinks it is condescending). Maybe this is just the practical reality in the HA space; there appears to be many HIS/audiologists whose grasp of the products they prescribe is rather basic and there are many who, echoing a common consumer perspective, think there is little differentiation in the technology. It is the same thinking that devolves highly technical products into lowest common-denominator consumer devices; useful for gaining share in markets where full value will not be recognized or understood. Examples are legion.

In this MSB instance, training may have just got it wrong but my guess is that they are simply setting expectations. My experience with MSB so far has been that it is only useful in the more difficult environments. As you point out, it has never occurred to me to activate it when the environment is simple. MSB is just an easy switch for those exceptions when P1 isn’t cutting it and, as Oticon explains, not for everyday use. I pay attention to these kinds of small feature details, as do you and others on this forum who represent a very very tiny fraction of HA users. Speaking only for myself, while I occasionally get a little frustrated I don’t get annoyed because I know I’ll figure it out, and I know that the vast majority of folks just don’t particularly care.

$.02

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#112

Being from an engineering background myself, I understand exactly what you’re saying here, @mingus. I probably would have ignored these little inconsistencies/conflicting info as inconsequential if Oticon marketing hadn’t singled out and hyped up the OSB/MSB as a significant feature worth mentioning, but just treat it as yet another feature their bag of tricks available only in Genie 2 for HCPs to choose from if they deem it beneficial to their patients.

Instead, they put it front and center to be selected at the user’s fingertip in the ON app no less, and highlight it in marketing and video clips about this cool feature to toot their own horn and raise users’ awareness and make it directly accessible by the user. Then they flopped at explaining how beneficial it really is (or is it?). Instead, after touting how beneficial it is via their videos, they ended up telling users how inconsequential and unbeneficial it really is because all it does is boost Easy Environment NNS to 4 dB. That seems to be about all it really does. Or doesn’t it? Or does it?

Incidentally, even though there are whitepapers about almost every feature deemed worth mentioning from Oticon (DNN MoreSound Intelligence, MoreSound Amplifier, Spatial Sound, Clear Dynamics, Speech Rescue, OpenSound Navigator, the Open/MoreSound Optimizer, MyMusic, Wind Noise Management, Velox Platform, Polaris Platform, etc), I’ve yet to see ANY whitepaper that goes over the Open/MoreSound Booster in details. It’s almost as if it’s just a marketing afterthought, not really an engineering feature of any sort. Yet it is front and center in the ON app for every user to see and select. Only for many users to not even notice anything different/beneficial about it after they try it out, so eventually they ignore it, after wasting time trying it out.

OK, I’ll get off my rant now.

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#113

I agree with your sentiments 100%. Especially the point that to promote a “feature” for which there is no technical documentation to support providers, let alone consumers, is just plain stupid. It’s kinda strange that Oticon hasn’t caught this and remedied it. But then again, I pretty much gave up having otherwise expectations after seeing billions of people embrace Windows and having sat in a room listening to a Gates tantrum about taking over enterprise computing. So pretty much nothing surprises me any more. :grin:

#114

@mingus, @Volusiano: FWIW, my layman’s take is this - my household experiments have shown MSB to be useless at attenuating things like refrigerator hum or low-intensity noises.

I haven’t tried to measure the threshold with my uncalibrated SPL app, however, there has to be a considerable loud threshold before the MoreSound Bullster®️ kicks in. When it does, it ramps up smoothly over an interval of 2 seconds. OR,

… my wife is correct and I’m just “losing it”. :joy:

#115

Haha, the Spudster appropriately renamed it the MoreSound Bullster! Gangster style!

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#116

Don’t bother with the More 1s … for speech in noise, the new Whisper hearing aids are MUCH better than anything else I’ve tried. They do what hearing aids were supposed to do all along.

They’re not as good at streaming as the usual high-end hearing aids, they’re bigger (and aren’t rechargeable) and require a pocketable external unit called the “brain” to get best results, but if speech in noise is what you want to be able to hear clearly, I’m willing to bet there’s nothing else like this.

The financing is also easier to handle than traditional high-end ones … you pay monthly, and my audiologist told me that $95/month (so about $3600) over 3 years is what people are paying right now.

#117

Glad to hear that you’re happy with Whisper’s performance, @happymach. The more input we have from users like this, the better informed everyone is. I’ll comment more on this on the Whisper thread itself.

#118

@happymach: Everything I’ve bolded is either a non-issue (sorry , my vocab neurons are drying up → inconsequential?) or an advantage, as far as I’m concerned. Thanks for that input.

HOWEVER … how’s the “granularity” of the soundscape? Will Whisper pick up all those discrete little “critter sounds” I need/want to hear?

[Addendum: I have NO IDEA how this topic just showed up as active, once again … but the retrospective views are interesting.*]