thanks! Wonderful suggestion.
DaveL
Great! Thanks for sharing who is the eBay seller?
OK, I have no idea what that is but I will ask my audiologist. Will that have an adverse affect on the sound quality indoors?
Private message me and I’ll give you his eBay info and his WhatsApp number. He’s very good with communications.
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In my experience, no
Hello and welcome, David1959. Yes, I’m in UK too and I agree with you there’s nothing home-grown to approach the quality of this Hearing Tracker forum. Real user experiences.
Music is One Huge Issue! NHS audiologists, perhaps private as well, typically receive little to no training in fitting for music. The mantra is speech-in-noise.
I took a teaching college to task about that - and got a very nice response from the senior audio professor who actually agreed, and said they’d revisit curriculum.
So… the thing is to politely check out your audiologist. Make it clear that music really matters to you - and don’t let the conversation default straight to Bluetooth etc. As a performing musician you’ll be able to judge whether the individual is supportive of live music, or would rather not go there.
The first HA to really address my high-end hearing loss with acceptable fidelity was the now obsolete Phonak Naida-S, a pair of them. Speech was clear, the frequency-shifting helped discriminate between essess and effs… but… that clever stuff destroyed music. Instruments sounded out of tune, and middle pitches warbled. So the audiologist agreed to turn off the clever processing. He warned I would get more frequent whistling, and I did, but I became able to enjoy music, both live (I play piano) and loudspeakered.
I’m now fitted with a slightly less old pair of NHS Phonaks, M70, by a wonderful audiologist.
She didn’t just measure using tones, she talked, listened, invited me to play a chord or two on my own little keyboard. Wonderful result - I stepped out onto Exeter high street hearing chatter, street musicians, the buses…
There can be feedback if I turn up volume to hear quiet things (how much always depends on the individual of course and earmould fit) - but I know I can, on these more recent aids, have a speech/music toggle activated. Very likely will go back and request that. Bear in mind - this option might not be offered to you unless you ask!
Mobiles can be pretty clear, Apple laptops very good indeed. As for hearing TV: most sets and even soundbars produce dreadful sound. Poor speakers, pointing downwards, and the origination less carefully miked up than it used to be. Plus too much ‘mood music’. I was trained to work in BBC-tv sound production, and now find myself shouting at the set! Best of luck in your quest.
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Hi, thanks for such an informative response. I actually picked up my aids earlier this morning and have been wearing them since, so far so good, some whistling but seems to disappear once the volume is turned down a little.
I went to one of the big high street brands as they had a special offer on the Phonak Paradise P90 aids.
I don’t think they’re audiologists in the truest sense, as I had been warned they just set them to ‘new user’ and off I went, having said that I’m very impressed so far. Very comfortable and hardly know I have them on, the only give away is when, like now typing this message, the keyboard seems so loud! I just popped over to see a friend (incidentally, also ex BBC but in graphic design) and could hear every word she said which is a first for at least 5 or 6 years. I’ve also answered several phone calls, all superb and without issue.
I totally agree about the BBC ‘mood music’, I love anything David Attenborough produces but gave up several years ago as I could never hear a word he said over the accompanying music. I will see if the new aids make a difference?
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Hi again, David1959. That’s such good news - delighted to know your P90 are working so well.
Impulsive sounds such as typing can indeed be intrusive. Sometimes this may be because auto-volume levelling or limiting (if active) isn’t responding quite fast enough to catch prominent millisecond sounds. It can add a clicky start to words, too. Again, my marvellous audiologist understood and remedied mine - somehow!
Could not agree more strongly with you about the Attenborough music. In his earlier progs, even in deepest jungle we were treated ludicrously to a 30-piece metropolitan orchestra. Followed him everywhere it did, blotting out words and natural sounds. Seems to have improved recently.
I did once read a pained piece by a film-dubbing mixer urging producers to accept a bit less musical volume in the interest of intelligibility. They listen of course on super-definition speakers in padded rooms, and know the words already. The rest of us just have to do our best!
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You are very lucky to have an audiologist who both understands the features of the hearings aids they supply and is prepared to / is given time to configure for you. Very different from my recent experience hence why I have resorted to obtaining the programming hardware & software.
I don’t know the features and options of the Phonak M70 ( what is the full model name ) but could the audiologist have set music as a selectable mode then the default still with the processing enabled for when overall beneficial?
I had Naida S and now have Nathos Auto SP. Music is both an automatic mode and a selectable mode ( it was selectable only on Naida S ) but, I presume, with all the processing still running. I will investigate when the processing can be turned off. For me though given my audiogram and HF loss for listing overall maybe better as is. Compared to simply turning Hi-fi up loud I get the higher frequencies and vocal better but the bottom end is lost, I presume the either the hearing aid microphone can not pick up and / or ’ speaker ’ can not reproduce.
@David1959, I’m glad to hear that your Phonaks are working for you, but…as a new HA wearer the only thing you have to compare with the Phonaks is unaided hearing. The Phonaks may seem like a revelation to you, but it’s also possible that you might try Oticon or Widex or another brand and find that they are even better than the Phonaks.
In a perfect world (for patients, at least) you would be able to trial as many HAs as you wanted, and you could have unlimited adjustments with each HA and be able to switch back and forth among different HAs and different adjustments until you had the best HA with the best adjustment for your personal taste. And your audi would be equally skilled in adjusting all brands of HAs.
In the real world that can’t happen, but, if I were you, after getting used to the Phonaks, I would ask to try at least one other brand for a few weeks. I would suggest Widex for the comparison, as I found Oticon and Phonak to be similar, but Widex to be different. Some others here will, I’m sure, disagree. Make sure that your audi is experienced in programming the second brand. IMO you shouldn’t insist on trying a brand that your audi is inexperienced in programming.
I would also make sure that if you preferred the Phonaks over the second brand, that you could go back and buy the Phonaks.
On whichever HAs you decide to buy, have your audi set up a separate program for performing and/or listening to music. On that program, have the audi set the anti-feedback setting to the minimum setting possible that still avoids frequent feedback. This will help the music to sound more natural and less garbled. Hope this helps. Good luck.
Hello Delta10
Long reply here, hope it’s useful!
Yes, I am grateful to my NHS audiologist and her exploratory mind-set. We were in-clinic 40 minutes following a short Zoom from which it had became apparent that a detailed adjustment wasn’t possible by remote.
The Phonaks are M70 VS P.
What made for success that cheered us both was she was such a good listener. To assist focus, I had drawn up a short list of issues (familiar to so many of us on this forum!): transient clicking, squashing and warbling of music, absence of low frequencies, clogging of high ones, shifted pitch…
Despite being a sound recordist, I promised I wasn’t being unduly fussy!
The excellent Hearing Aids for Music project by Prof Alinka Greasley of Leeds University identified all such issues in a survey of some 1,300 musical people, and came up with really clear fitting suggestions which have filtered through to some UK clinics. Prof Greasley just happens to be a keen musician…
What worked for me, musically, was turning off all the fancy processing apart from simple high-end lift, shaping the compression so it only kicks in on very loud sounds, curtailing the top end response to match my hearing curve (this dealt with whistles that I couldn’t hear but others could!) and… somewhat against tradition… letting bass around 100Hz get through. Also she turned off directional pickup, as this created a phasey sound - as well as being a potential hazard walking in traffic. All this was swiftly done, with the corrective curve visible to me.
To answer your query - yes the M70 can be set up user-selectable between sweet 'n musical or processed and directional for best speech in noise. Worth asking for.
On your point of HA response: with earmould pressed well in, and a very small vent, these little instruments respond down to the bottom E of a five string bass - that’s 30 Hz. True fundamental, not harmonic. Amazing. The lows, around 80 to 150, have been shown to assist speech comprehension as well and I find that to be true. Though we are all different.
Very best of luck to you in doing your own setting up. A great and practical idea, and may your user interface turn out to be friendly!
They would be the Phonak Naida M70 SP from the NHS.
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@Zebras
Academic for now but Phonak Naida M70 SP are not showing in my setup. I guess I either need to change software from 6.1.x to 7.x and / or a different code.
@ellisonvoice
Thanks for your reply. I’m sure helpful to others as well.
My time with the audiologist to carry out a hearing test then issue Oticon Synergy Sense as an ’ upgrade ’ to Naida S V SP was only just over 30mins. When I complained to swap those for Phonak Nathos Auto SP only about 15 mins. At the end of this effectively told to allow a long time to adapt - read into that as you wish.
I was very lucky with timing to source the Hipro unit but it would useless without the support of forum members for software. My day job is traditional electronics for industry but it gives a technical understanding of audio too.
Music is not my priority but equally logical for this program to try and set the best balance of what works for me in various situations. Living at home I can simply turn TV and Hi-fi up but limited on how much compensation for my natural losses.
Given I can not sing in tune I have often pondered if I hear music differently beyond my frequency losses, predominantly high frequency.
This afternoon I have subtly changed the mid frequency gain of my left aid as vocals to me were right-of-centre.
For the music mode, auto and selectable program, I had increased the loud music gain to reduce the compression / level shifting. However after my experience yesterday when very much too loud I have set it back again although a compromise.
The only way I can get more options would be two sets of aids - one programmed for indoor and work where noise and a second for outdoor and loud public places.
Regarding low frequencies if on my amplifier I adjust the bass from min to max and switch loudness though the aids I hear little change. Without, and the amplifier set loder of course, it is significant. Similarly listening with earphones / headphones. Playing music on my phone with earphones I have more bass while I boost the higher frequencies to balance my natural loss.
Live, i.e. without saving settings, adjusting the low frequency gain of the aids to me did not give a significant difference either.
One reason in the past I have not worn the aids outdoors was finding them disorientating. As set now the autosense modes seem better - the aids can select between calm situation, speech in noise and comfort in noise.
Phonak Naida M70 SP are not locked to the NHS.
If it says Naida on the underside of the hearing aid then it likely the Naida M70 SP.
The Phonak Nathos Nova are locked to the NHS.
Hang on, you say you have the Nathos Auto SP? These aren’t Bluetooth at all.
@Zebras
Sorry if confusion.
I have recently been issued Phonak Nathos Auto SP.
Out of interest I was going to compare features with the Phonak M70 VS P @ellisonvoice has as I presume newer and/or higher specification than Phonak Nathos Auto SP.
If these are Phonak Naida M70 VS P I can not see listed in Target 6.1.x ( I have installation for 7.1.x but as PC is Windows 7 and 6.1.x covers Nathos Auto all I actually need ).
There is no such thing to these hearing aids, that’s why you can’t find them.
Looked on Google, you need Target 6.2 or newer for the Naida M70 SP.
Something to add, 6.1 is the last update before iCube II stops working. Update to 6.2 and the iCube II won’t work. Not sure about HiPro as that’s even older.
Do you find the Nathos Auto SP powerful enough as it has less power then the Naida V S SP?
Nathos Auto SP
Naida S V SP
I don’t want to take this thread too far off topic but to answer your points
First the Phonak website system requirements page for Target 7.3, the latest ?, lists this as compatible with both Hipro including serial so long as a RS232 port ( or presumably a suitable USB-RS232 adapter - something I will try ) and iCube II. I recall reading iCube I compatability had ended hence why they are listed on eBay at a low price.
What I have not investigated is if all Phonak aids, or at least all BTE, are still programmable by Hipro.
Second yes I find the Nathos Auto SP loud enough. From the default the volume switch has 5 x 2dB steps both up and down. Sometime I can investigate how much overhead there is. My first digital aids were Oticon Zest and since then my natural hearing has not deteriorated that much.
Back on topic to music while the Nathos Auto SP and previous Naida S V SP have 16 frequency bands that can be adjusted the NHS hearing test is still at far fewer frequencies - I will check later. My losses are more complex than just an overall loss and high frequency roll-off, the latter more so for my right ear. First I have Tinnitus which effectively sets my low volume level cut-off. A crude simulation is a signal generator set at around 800Hz. Second a long time ago I played a frequency generator into headphones and found I had a ’ notch filter '. I seem to recall in the region of 1 - 2kHz but now not if one or both ears. Sometime I can do this again.
Then I can try boosting the frequency/ies to at least compensate for this which ought to help with speech intelligibility. I am very fortunate to be able to do this.
If the NHS tested at more frequencies then they could refine the hearing aid settings.
Phonak Target System Requirements _ PhonakPro_7p3.pdf (389.0 KB)
Audiograms can’t test more frequencies. It’s not just the NHS.
Yeah so this is the backwards compatibility thing with using target, I noticed it also lists the NOAHlink!
I believe most are, it’s easy to find out exactly by using target, just pick any model from the list and pick the programming device from the drop down menu, target will tell you straight away if it’s compatible with the chosen model.
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