Genie 2 changing target gain curve after going from 2018 to 2022 version

After 4 years I retuned to my audi to check my Oticon OPN 1. The last session was using Genie 2 2018 version and now the Genie 2 2022 version.
Before any adjustment or setting change, just using the last session data (which matches what I have on OPN 1), I noticed a big difference on the target curve (fitting section), as the simulated (solid) curve is now well above the target one (doted).
Checking the 2018 reports, the simulated curve was very close to the target one (as it should be):

But now on the 2022 version, while the simulated curve remains the same, the target is about 5dB lower:

Any comments on that?
Thank you.

I got lost after (I returned to my audi to check my Oticon OPN 1)…

What did your Audi say?
Are the screen prints from your Audi?
You say (Checking the 2018 reports). Are the screen prints from reports?

The Audi has no idea the reason for that… seems like a new problem on 2022 version or, more likely, a solution from an old one on 2018.
The 2022 version screen print is from Audi computer and the 2018 version is from a report generated at the last (2018) session.
This 2022 version session was, like I said, before any changes… so, same audiogram, same parameters (all of them) as set on 2018 one (still running on my OPN 1).

I assume that you already double checked the HA model selection as well as the fitting selection (dome or whatever, vent sizes, etc) to make sure that it’s the same between the new and the old Genie 2.

The one obvious thing I can think of is that the new 2022 Genie 2 version has the Fitting Assistant that the old 2018 Genie 2 doesn’t have. Although if you haven’t messed around with the Fitting Assistant, then it shouldn’t have made any adjustment for you.

I would also checked the Personalization section, just to make sure that the settings in there are the same as what you had before and didn’t revert to default or something.

Finally, try to do an in-situ audiometry test with the 2022 Genie 2 version. It doesn’t necessarily explain why your new target gain is 5 dB below the old target gain, but at least it helps to compare how well the in-situ result matches with your audiogram in the new Genie 2, and you can also compare the target curve of the newly in-situ prescribed audiogram against the target curve of the hard-coded original audiogram. Basically just to notice if you notice anything odd.

Volusiano, thank you for your reply.
Yes, I’ve checked everything (including Fitting Defaults and firmware level) many times. Both versions have exactly the same input data and program settings.
I included charts just from the left ear, as the right one on 2022 version remains with the same gain target as 2018 version.
The difference between my two ears relies on BC, as shown on my audiogram:

This is where the 2022 version is dealing differently, as we can see also on the Audiograms under the Selection section. It seems Genie 2 is applying a new strategy in this situation.
2018 Selection Audiogram:

2022 Selection Audiogram:

I am afraid this change was done (possibly) for better fitting on new models (More, etc), but not suitable to the old OPN.
I confess that my left ear level maybe currently a little higher than the right one, but 5dB is too much.
By the way, do you know how many dBs are changed on each step of the Oticon ON app level control?
Thank you again.

I think it’s 1 dB per the online help for Genie 2 (see screenshot below).

I’m guessing that maybe Oticon has updated their VAC+ fitting rationale to customize further for the More, and as a result maybe they don’t retain the old VAC+ version just for the OPN and therefore force the new VAC+ rationale on all models going forward. This is simply a guess, however. If you had a program with one of the industry standard fitting rationales before on your OPN 1, maybe you can check and see if the target curve has also changed for them or not. If not then maybe my theory is correct. But if their target gain curves have changed as well, then maybe it’s a bad theory. But of course if you didn’t have a target gain curve in the old Genie 2 version as a reference to compare to, then you wouldn’t know.

I’ve update my Genie 2 to the 2022 version already and I’m still using my OPN 1 with this new version and I haven’t noticed any changes on the gain curves in my case. But your audiogram is very different than mine so maybe the changes they made have a bigger effect on your kind of hearing loss for some reason.

Volusiano, thank you again.
The volume steps on Oticon ON App for iPhone are also 1dB?
I was looking at the Fitting Assistant and it really can help focusing on specific adjustments without messing everything else. Very good suggestion.
My new audiogram shows more BC losses on left ear, while AC is about the same.
Interesting that, having the previous audiogram as a reference (and using the Genie 2022 version), the new insertion gains are lower than before.
That was not what I expected: more loss → lower gain.
Does it make sense?
Thank you.

I don’t really know what the ON app volume steps are in in terms of dB. I don’t know if they document it anywhere. It may vary depending on your range of audibility.

One way you can try to guess is to look at the Reserve Gain margin you have and see how many clicks on the button it takes to traverse that gain and do the math.

For example, in the screenshot below, my right Reserve Gain is 5 dB while my left Reserve Gain is 7.5 dB. In the ON app, I can click up to 2 from 0 on my right ear before it maxes out, but on my left ear, it can go up to 3 before it maxes out.

So by just doing simple math, it looks like each volume step in the ON app is equivalent to 2.5 dB.

The volume steps in the ON app seems to also correspond to each button click on the OPN 1 as well. So I assume that each button click is also 2.5 dB for my case.

But for your case, it’s not necessarily the same because you may have a different audibility range than I do and your Reserve Gains may also be different. So you just gotta look at your own situation and do your own math to figure out what it is.

Not sure I understand what you’re asking. But I’m not an HCP to really be educated enough in the hearing department anyway to know how the BC loss correlate to the AC loss in the first place anyway.

My point is not related directly to correlation between BC and AC losses.
In general, I would assume that in any case of loss, the HA should compensate with more gain.
In my example, my current real case, AC is the same while BC is worse. So, I would expect more gain in HA to compensate this. But Genie is decreasing the gain. I can’t figure out the reason…

I’ve found with Phonak Target, if I make too many changes, it actually stops adjusting properly. I have to open up another client and I seem to get better gains, despite all settings being the same.

The difference is quite shocking really but I do tend to make quite a lot of adjustments, I’m not one for just sticking with one setting. I’m always trying to improve things.

I have no idea if this relates to Oticon tho.

Unfortunately this is not the case. That was a fresh new one, starting with an updated audiogram… but the alert is noted. Thank you !


That’s a real bummer. I hope you find out the issue.

I can’t say, and wouldn’t say, that Genie 2 is wrong.
As Volusiano said, I’m also not educated enough in hearing department; perhaps things are not so simple as I realized… but I am curious.

My best guess if you’ve checked for consistency everywhere is that the VAC+ fitting rationale is changed to maybe accommodate the More models better now, but that might have made it less suitable for the OPN 1.

If you truly like what you had with the OPN 1 prescription from the previous Genie 2 version, maybe you can uninstall and roll back and reinstall the older version again to maintain the original target curve. BUT, if you have your original gain curves documented somewhere, you can still use the Fine Tuning of the new version to make modifications to match with the original gain curves, despite the new target gain curve being lower. This can save you the trouble of rolling back to the older version. But of course, it’s going to be a hard coded change and you lose the ability to re-prescribe accurately unless you roll back the software.

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Volusiano, I agree. But how can I reinstall an older version?
Regarding Fine Tuning manual adjustment, it may get closer to the old target, but it is not always possible to increase frequencies gains individually, mainly on lower ones, as the adjacent frequencies tend to “link” and change at the same time, and sometimes it reaches a limit and blocks any increase.
I was leading with this in the past, when I made a Music program based on Power domes on both ears to have extended low frequencies response, which required manual fine tuning (as the 3 other programs were based on recommended, less closed domes, and it is not possible to change domes across programs).

Yeah, that’s true that you can’t individually change the gain in each discrete frequency channel to anything you want without possibly affecting the adjacent channels. But I wonder if you start out where the changes are the least and gradually move to where the changes are the most last, whether if that would help match it better? Nevertheless, it can still be subject to the willy nillies of the Genie 2 algorithms.

I assume that you can just uninstall the current version completely and then reinstall using the older version, as simple as that. I don’t know about you, but I keep all my original downloaded Genie 2 versions so I don’t have to hunt for whether the older versions are still online or not. I think the US page no longer provides the Genie 2 downloads like before. But maybe their Canada website still has the older version’s for download. I’m looping in @pvc here as he is more knowledgeable than I am about where Genie 2 versions can be found, and I think specifically maybe from the Oticon Canadian website.

Only the latest version (Genie2 2022.1 standalone) is available from the Oticon Canada site, no older versions are available.

Genie 2018.2 is both Genie and Genie2 in a single-install large-download 4 GB+.

You may want to save your client-data via Export to a .NHAX file first, and then Import client-data back into Genie/Genie2 2018.2.

After Un-installing (Genie, Genie2, and Genie Updater) cleanup the leftover Oticon directories listed below.

Install Genie+Genie2 2018.2 and don’t take any updates.

Thanks! @pvc!!!