Equalized Headphones for Music

Hearing Loss
#14

I’m no expert but I’m not sure that’s entirely true.

I did a listening comparison on a site that had recordings of different headphones. The recording would start with some kind of alleged reference sound. Then played from one headphone. Then back to the reference. Then another headphone. I thought it was really good. What I found was that many headphones did indeed color the sound. I didn’t want that effect. I found a brand that when listening, I could barely if at all discern the difference. That’s what I think might be thought of as flat. Which is what I wanted.

There are some audio pros around here. I’m not one of them.
The possibility of damaging your hearing I would leave to the experts around here. I’ll say it again…sure…people with not so good hearing can hear things when cranked up to high volumes. Is it good for them? Probably not.

I would say though that sounds above maybe around 7 or 8khz are really just harmonics of notes played at reasonably normal listening frequencies. Yes, to not hear them might make the original played note seem a little thin. But you would still be hearing the original note being played. This would be particularly so for natural acoustic instruments played without amplification. Electronic and amplified…all bets are off. Particularly if played back from a recording.

#15

Just for kicks and giggles, let’s see if we can find a frequency response curve for your phones. Model/brand?

#16

Audio-technica ath-m40x.
The listening test I mentioned was not on them. But all things remain equal listening to that test through whichever headphones. My criteria was looking for sound alteration. The ones above didn’t seem to alter the sound.
As always…we ALL perceive and enjoy (or not) sound differently so don’t bother doing the big gotcha ah hah on me. :slight_smile:

#17

I’m obviously missing something, but it seems like you just want headphones and an equalizer, and advice on maximum loudness level to listen at?

#18

By gar that’s some darn fine nutshelling right there.

Hey jtw…have a look here to listen to all the frequencies going up as high as you’re asking. If I leave my equalizer on flat and don’t use my HA’s and use either speakers or headphones then the sound kinda ping pongs back and forth due to my particular hearing issues. Get up to 8 or 9khz and I got nothin’. Crank up the volume and I think I can get to 12khz or something. The spousal unit does not enjoy it though.
WATCH THAT VOLUME! I start it out at 1 but that of course depends on your other controls.

#19

Some of that MDB. I feel like I need a more robust audiogram, first. And by that, I mean an audiogram that samples more frequencies above the point where my hearing starts to roll off. Take the ath-m40x mentioned above. Scroll down on this page to find a frequency response graph: Audio-Technica ATH-M40x Review

Makes sense that they sounded flat for someone who has diminished high frequency hearing. Now, being an audio nut, I recognize that I am missing high frequencies, and find that I can make that music sound really good again using EQ. If I use the basic audiogram I have, it would indicate that I should boost the frequencies at 10dB/octave, starting at 4kHz. If I apply that boost on top of those 2 big peaks in the headphone, will I damage my hearing?

I’ve heard that I would only damage hair cells that respond to the location of those peaks, but I wanna hear it from a pro. If, as a result of those peaks and EQ, I blast a 10kHZ tone, will that damage my hearing at lower frequencies? Don’t know. I’d like to hear it from a pro. …and the more robust audiogram.

The other thing is that there is a guideline to limit headphones to 80dB. If I boost 4-8kHz by 10dB, what should my limits be? Surely, boosting 10dB over one octave doesn’t measure the same as boosting 10dB from 20-20kHz. Or does it?

#20

My understanding is that you can’t really use your audiogram to tell you how many decibels to add. It is not as simple as adding dB. For one there’s several different types of dB and they are not interchangeable. This is music. Basically you want to adjust the equalizer so it sounds good to you. 85 dB (spl) is a number that sticks in my head as something not to exceed for any sustained period, but I agree getting advice from a professional would be good.

#21

I didn’t do the listening comparisons with the m40x’s.
I was listening for changes in the feel of the transitions between the different segments. I sensed very little change when the m40x’s were played.
I would consider myself somewhat of an “audio nut” too and I too am aware of my loss of high frequencies. I too use an EQ to bring some of it back. But at the end of the day…those very high frequencies are nothing but harmonics. Sure a lot of the sounds produced from instruments can be in those ranges and can give depth to the sound but it’s almost imperceptible. This is a part of what I’m saying. It’s about the energy up in those harmonics. In a lot of cases the energy is minimal. Except cymbal interestingly.
This talks about loudness levels and for how long to take it before damage might occur.

#22

You do understand that there are the same number of notes between 500Hz and 1KHz as there are between 8KHz and 16KHz ? You can be tested at half octave intervals if it helps.

Truly flat responses are unlikely as your driver unit will have an inherent resonant frequency(ies). You can square the circle using appropriate crossovers or through processing.

It’s all a bit irrelevant anyway, as your ear compliance isn’t standard, so there will be more or less volume and compliance/inductance in the structure than the headphone driver is designed to manage - so you won’t get what it says on the tin unless you get you headphones fitted with REM of another canal measure.

#23

Thanks for sticking with me folks.

Yes Um_bongo. There seem to be a huge amount of variables in play. And the Fletcher-Munson effect makes everything even more confused. I know I can get the sound I want with lots of EQ. I guess it really does boil down to whether I would be damaging my hearing. So I think I can narrow it down to 4 specific questions:

1: Can anyone help me find an audiophile audiologist in the Houston area who can perform a ½ octave hearing test extending up to 16kHz?

2: Does excessively loud sound in a narrow frequency range damage hearing only in that range, or would it also affect my hearing at frequencies outside of that range?

3: If I start with music that averages 80dB, then replay it with 8-16kHz boosted 10 dB, what will be the measured average dB of that music?

4: If 85dB is a 1 hour limit for healthy ears, is this the same limit for folks with diminished hearing? If it is, hearing aid users would be damaging their hearing every day.

#24

Hey Z10. Thanks for the 3 links. The tone generator is interesting, because if I use my source and headphones, I can kinda get rid of the need to figure out whether diminished hearing is due to my ears/brain or peaks and valleys in the headphones’ frequency response.

This is the curveball: Fletcher–Munson curves - Wikipedia
Its a set of curves showing the humans don’t hear low bass and high treble as well as frequencies associated with speech. Makes sense. As volume increases, our ears hear the ons and highs better and better relative to the mids. I think audiograms at the doc compensate for this, but don’t know about the frequency generator.

Trying to wrap my tiny mind around all of this.

#25

Again…enter in your standard 8khz audiogram here and we can see what you have for standards. I went through a lot of this struggle before finally giving in to needing HA’s. Turn up treble, val salva, asking for repeats, frustration at not hearing everything, removing myself from hearing challenging situations etc.
Unless you’ve caused damage to your ears…it’s called presbycusis. In an easier word…age.

#26

This works very well!

#27

maybe this could help you dial in the exact curve that you what you want to hear…

http://auralware.com/EPM/Epm_Lite.html

I have a physical parametric equalizer tied to my audio system and I’ve always been able to get the sound I want, through any speakers I’ve owned or wired headphones.

Good luck

#28

I thought I’d mention to you that the question of whether certain frequencies boosted enough in headphones so you can hear them is the same question asked repeatedly (including by me): Will hearing aids, which significantly boost certain frequencies to bring them into your hearing range, further damage your hearing long-term.

It is my belief that it probably will, though this has been much debated. For me it is a quality of life issue though, I guess I’d rather hear and understand now and not later, rather than barely comprehend evenly for the rest of my life.

Anyway I don’t think you’re going to find a satisfactory answer for that part of your question.

#29

If you’re still interested, I can throw off my selection of headphones and a comparison of their characteristics

#30

Guys & Gals… you don’t want to be doing simple equalization. That could actually be harmful at loud levels, and it won’t be enough at soft levels. EQ is only correct at one loudness level at each frequency. The correct amount depends on the frequency, the level of the signal at that frequency, and your particular hearing. You need nonlinear compression. Head over to refined-audiometrics.com and read all about it.

But it also depends on the program material and the way you listen to it. If the music is pretty much at constant loudness (hyper-compressed loudness war material), then perhaps EQ will be good enough for you since the dynamic range is restricted.

But for listening to wide dynamic range symphonic material you will really appreciate what nonlinear compression can do for you, and also not knock you out of your chair when the trumpets blare in the 3rd movement of Scheherezade.

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#31

The legendary DB McLean I presume? I went there but I need an intro to the intro to this stuff. Any recommendations for real-world products for dummies?

#32

If you use a Mac computer for listening to music, or you can pipe your music through a Mac, I can provide a solution to you by having you download from
refined-audiometrics.com/tekram/CrescendoLive64.zip

If you need outboard hardware solutions, independent from any computer, then I still have a few systems laying around. But that costs about $3,000, versus free on the Mac.

#33

Thanks. I have friends with Macs, so I might be able to try it out. Hmmm, I’m still feeling guilty about the 400AUD I spent on the Nura. Not that I was ever in any danger of sending it back in the 30 day trial period. I might try it out on some wide dynamic range material and see how it goes.