Cookie-bite hearing loss

[MaM]

HI Deaf123,

Me, again… sorry. You seem to know a lot about the particulars of hearing loss and I was wondering whether you knew something about this. I searched online but couldn’t really find the right info.

When I turn music volume way, way down (because I’m trying to listen for something beyond the music, like someone talking to me), the pitches (maybe just certain ones) become all out of tune. I can still faintly hear the music, but it’s as though everything is out of pitch. Being trained in music and piano, I can recognize tones that are musically out of pitch so I am positive that the pitch goes out and it’s not just my imagining it so. This happens on the iPod, car stereo or home stereo, with or without headphones, so it’s not just the player. Is this just the effect of having a regular hearing loss, or is there something else going on? Thanks again!

[ed121]

What you are saying is almost surely what’s called in the acoustics field, the Fletcher-Munson effect. That is, when the amplitude of sound is reproduced lower than the original levels recorded, the human hearing system perceives an unnatural relationship between the highs and the lows. Harmonics no longer retain the original amplitude relationship with their fundamentals.

I don’t think that turning the volume down would in any way change the frequency or pitch… As I said, due to human ear non-linear frequency vs amplitude perception, it just changes a whole bunch of amplitude relations between lows, mids, and highs .

Many pre-amps have volume (loudness) controls that attempt to restore the original balances.
Ed

[MaM]

What you are saying is almost surely what’s called in the acoustics field, the Fletcher-Munson effect. That is, when the amplitude of sound is reproduced lower than the original levels recorded, the human hearing system perceives an unnatural relationship between the highs and the lows. Harmonics no longer retain the original amplitude relationship with their fundamentals.

I don’t think that turning the volume down would in any way change the frequency or pitch… As I said, due to human ear non-linear frequency vs amplitude perception, it just changes a whole bunch of amplitude relations between lows, mids, and highs .

Many pre-amps have volume (loudness) controls that attempt to restore the original balances.
Ed

That’s fascinating to learn about. Thanks for the clarification!

[Deaf123]

Hi Deaf123,
I just tried the online piano thud test. My computer speakers are quite loud so I don’t know if I set the levels right. (FYI-- my worst loss is 60 decibels in the mid-frequencies in both ears.)

I can hear all the notes. The mid-frequency ones are a little softer but I can hear them fine. However, I notice that a few of the mid-frequency ones don’t resonate and the one at 1046 Hz sounds like it really gets cut off short. I definitely cannot hear the 4 seconds.

So I moved to my real piano and found that about 4 notes in that range of the piano don’t resonate at all. I hear the note, but they sound cut-off whereas every other note on the piano, higher and lower, resonates. Would you know if that means anything other than that I have a mid-frequency loss?

By the way, my steep decline on my audiogram is between 500 and 1K. The loss drops about 30 decibels between the two frequencies, in both ears. Then from the 60 decibel loss, it’s a hill that reaches to a 10 decibel loss at 4K. My audiograms resemble big "V"s more than anything. Don’t know if that info helps. Thanks!

Try the test with your HAs on. Do any adjacant notes sound the same pitch or distorted or like you are hearing more than one pitch together? It’s the rising slope that’s more likley to have dead zones. If you do have dead zones, it may be in a narrow range of perhaps half an octive.

[MaM]

Try the test with your HAs on. Do any adjacant notes sound the same pitch or distorted or like you are hearing more than one pitch together? It’s the rising slope that’s more likley to have dead zones. If you do have dead zones, it may be in a narrow range of perhaps half an octive.

I won’t have my HAs until next week, but I’ll try after that time. However, without them, I didn’t have any notes with pitch distortion at the full volume. Just some that were softer or the whose sound died out very quickly (it didn’t resonate).

[MaM]

I received my new HAs: Oticon Epoq XWs. It has only been two days and I know I need time to adjust. As of right now, they are mostly a good experience. Very comfortable (custom molds). I can now understand when someone is speaking to me from across a room or in another room. They don’t need to be near me. TV and telephone (with bluetooth) is excellent compared to not having the HAs.

The down side is all the machine noise in the background environment which seems to be amplified and also the distant, constant static when the room is very quiet. It sounds exactly like the static between tracks of music on a CD when using headphones. It’s faint, but it’s always there.

The machine noises are the main problem. I believe many machine noises, from cars to fan motors, are low-frequency. Is this correct? Does anyone here know what frequencies I should ask the audiologist to try and modify when I go in next week? I’d like for those sounds to be reduced. Then things would be pretty darn good with these HAs.

As I mentioned, for the most part, I am having a good experience. It’s just a pain if I am around too many machines-- like the dentist office, this morning. There were so many humming machines and TVs on that it made it hard to hear speech. Without my HAs, it’s much quieter overall, but I still have trouble hearing speech. Outside of that special situation of a busy dentist office, I definitely hear speech better with these HAs.

Any thoughts on how to tweak the background noise? I want to know what to say to the audiologist that will clarify what I am looking for. Thanks!

[xbulder]

you can create an “noise or intense noice problem” which can be activated via streamer.
I would use a different identity for example, gradual or calm…

what you need to do is to use your streamer and use it to decrease the VC.
once you are in step 3 of adaptation manager and you have consistently reduce the VC
say in loud noise (you need to log 60hrs) the VC learning will kick in.

[MaM]

It sounds like you are dealing with many challenging environments - I would encourage you to try premium aids. The way I understand it, more channels is better when dealing with a complex loss like a cookie bite. And you are right - you are likely going to find that there are environments in which hearing aids improve things tremendously and othe environments in which you may function better without them. For many years, I had mine in and out constantly - milling around in a noisy party (out) - move aside for a one-on-one coversation (in) - step into the kitchen where the dishwasher is running (out) - child comes to speak to me (in) and on and on. I have finally recognized that my hearing is not going to get better (its gotten somewhat worse over the past two years) and that I need to live with the hearing aids in my ears. That’s where the FM system has come into play for me - so that I can manage in those environments where my aids leave me feeling confused.

Hi MamaJoy,
The above quote is from your earlier post and it interests me because I think this might be my situation exactly: that different environments will and won’t work with HAs.

I just called my audiologist and she said we will definitely be tweaking and adjusting to get a better sound balance, but that there is only so much tweaking that can be done. She has always been very friendly and patient, so I don’t believe she was trying to put me off. She made it clear that I am always welcome to come in for adjustments and to try and deal with various issues. I think she is trying to set me up for realistic expectations.

She said in an environment that is especially noisy with a lot of machines, my natural hearing may be the better quality hearing than with the HAs on (at least, until my natural hearing gets even worse). From what you have said about cookie bite loss correction, it sounds like this may be true.

Have you had any better luck with your newest HAs?

[MaM]

you can create an “noise or intense noice problem” which can be activated via streamer.
I would use a different identity for example, gradual or calm…

what you need to do is to use your streamer and use it to decrease the VC.
once you are in step 3 of adaptation manager and you have consistently reduce the VC
say in loud noise (you need to log 60hrs) the VC learning will kick in.

Thanks for the advice. So is this something I do all myself, or do I discuss it with my audiologist to set up? For the very first week, my audiologist did not add any programs to my HAs. She said we would be doing this over time, depending on what my wishes and needs were after I’ve tried them out. Seems to me that your suggestion is what she might have meant about adding programs. I’m still a little ignorant about how it all works, so please excuse me if I’m not understanding correctly. Thanks for your input.

[mamajoy]

Hi MaM,

I would say, first of all, give yourself some time to get used to what you’re hearing. That sense that background noise - machine noise- is too loud is common to new hearing aid wearers. I do wonder if it is wose for us cookie biters, and I’ll be honest, it has never gone away for me. However, you do get used to it.

I would expect that you may need lots of tweaking to get things right (or as close to right as you’re going to get) - your audiologist should expect that too. That tweaking can make a lot of difference, and things may sound much, much better to you after some adjustments than they do now.

I am still trying out Exelia Art - I will be giving them back later this week to try the new Unitron Passport. My audi orderd me the BTE as well as the Moxi (that is what Unitron calls the receiver in the canal fitting), and I intend to try both. I may ultimately come back to the Exelia Art - we’ll see. The Exelia Arts are handling my recruitment very well - I am relieved to no longer be jumping out of my skin at loud noises. However, speech is not as clear as I think it should be - I am surprised by how much I don’t understand when wearing the aids. My perception is that I can understand better without the aids on if only everyone who speaks to me would just speak very loudly. I notice that when I listen to the television unaided through my headphones that I can understand better than when I use my FM system and listen through my aids (with music links and t-coil) - that doesn’t seem right to me. Because I’m no longer jumping at loud noises, I am keeping the aids in my ears full time, but there are still environments in which I suspect I would do better without them (unaided) - particularly when I am in the midst of a crowd and trying to carry on a conversation. I don’t know if better programming could overcome that, or if that is just the nature of the cookie bite loss. I am disappointed that my trial with the Exelia Arts has not been the fabulous experience I hoped for. I do know that my audi has little to no experience with Phonak and I do not think these are programmed the best that they can be. I am definitely committed to buying something new, though, as I can’t imagine going back to the constant jumping at sudden loud sounds that I was experiencing with my previous aids.

I will be interested to hear how you make out with the Epoq XWs. The audi I am seeing deals primarily with Oticon, and she would have sold me Epoqs if I had not come to her with a different agenda. There is only one audi in my entire metropolitan area who dispenses Phonak aids - I visited her, and for a number of reasons decided that I did not want to buy from her. The audi I’m dealing with has been very patient and totally willing to try what I want her to do, but, as I said, she’s not a Phonak person. I have really not been interested in trying Oticon aids, but I do wonder if she might be able to get better results for me with the Epoqs just because she knows more about what she’s doing with them.

Do keep us posted on how things are going as you have adjustments made and as you get used to the aids!

[xbulder]

Thanks for the advice. So is this something I do all myself, or do I discuss it with my audiologist to set up? For the very first week, my audiologist did not add any programs to my HAs. She said we would be doing this over time, depending on what my wishes and needs were after I’ve tried them out. Seems to me that your suggestion is what she might have meant about adding programs. I’m still a little ignorant about how it all works, so please excuse me if I’m not understanding correctly. Thanks for your input.

you need to be in adaptation level 3, which i assume you are not now but you will be
soon (2weeks or so). If you use the streamer VC your audi will be able to see this
in the memory screen. I would agree in that a noise program should be set ONLY after
adaptation in on step 3.

[xbulder]

Hi MaM,

I would say, first of all, give yourself some time to get used to what you’re hearing. That sense that background noise - machine noise- is too loud is common to new hearing aid wearers. I do wonder if it is wose for us cookie biters, and I’ll be honest, it has never gone away for me. However, you do get used to it.

I would expect that you may need lots of tweaking to get things right (or as close to right as you’re going to get) - your audiologist should expect that too. That tweaking can make a lot of difference, and things may sound much, much better to you after some adjustments than they do now.

I am still trying out Exelia Art - I will be giving them back later this week to try the new Unitron Passport. My audi orderd me the BTE as well as the Moxi (that is what Unitron calls the receiver in the canal fitting), and I intend to try both. I may ultimately come back to the Exelia Art - we’ll see. The Exelia Arts are handling my recruitment very well - I am relieved to no longer be jumping out of my skin at loud noises. However, speech is not as clear as I think it should be - I am surprised by how much I don’t understand when wearing the aids. My perception is that I can understand better without the aids on if only everyone who speaks to me would just speak very loudly. I notice that when I listen to the television unaided through my headphones that I can understand better than when I use my FM system and listen through my aids (with music links and t-coil) - that doesn’t seem right to me. Because I’m no longer jumping at loud noises, I am keeping the aids in my ears full time, but there are still environments in which I suspect I would do better without them (unaided) - particularly when I am in the midst of a crowd and trying to carry on a conversation. I don’t know if better programming could overcome that, or if that is just the nature of the cookie bite loss. I am disappointed that my trial with the Exelia Arts has not been the fabulous experience I hoped for. I do know that my audi has little to no experience with Phonak and I do not think these are programmed the best that they can be. I am definitely committed to buying something new, though, as I can’t imagine going back to the constant jumping at sudden loud sounds that I was experiencing with my previous aids.

I will be interested to hear how you make out with the Epoq XWs. The audi I am seeing deals primarily with Oticon, and she would have sold me Epoqs if I had not come to her with a different agenda. There is only one audi in my entire metropolitan area who dispenses Phonak aids - I visited her, and for a number of reasons decided that I did not want to buy from her. The audi I’m dealing with has been very patient and totally willing to try what I want her to do, but, as I said, she’s not a Phonak person. I have really not been interested in trying Oticon aids, but I do wonder if she might be able to get better results for me with the Epoqs just because she knows more about what she’s doing with them.

Do keep us posted on how things are going as you have adjustments made and as you get used to the aids!

if your audi is familiar with a particular brand, i would stick with that…

[MaM]

you need to be in adaptation level 3, which i assume you are not now but you will be
soon (2weeks or so). If you use the streamer VC your audi will be able to see this
in the memory screen. I would agree in that a noise program should be set ONLY after
adaptation in on step 3.

OK, thanks for the info!

[Ruby]

Hi,
Ive just been told i have cookie bite hearing loss.

I think i have just learned to live with it up until now. Realizing that i actually lip read and watch for facial expressions as cues to fill in the blanks. I can hear sound, but speech is not always clear. I have constant ringing in the ears, 3 different tones, which ive always had as well.

I decided to go and get checked after my boss noticed and mentioned it. I was in denial.
I went to Specsavers (Im in Australia) and they told me i had cookie bite hearing loss. I then went to Costco for a second opinion. Same thing. But the price difference for hearing aids is outrageous.

So, i have after trying the Phillips, and the Rexton in the Costco store, i decided on the Rexton, as the phillips sounded very artificial and was whistling.

I am totally in the dark with all of this. I have no family members with hearing loss at all. I dont know who to talk to, or who to trust.

I found this forum, and hope that someone can shed some light on the subject for me. I have entered some of the values from the Costco audiogram to my profile, but there is other information on there that i dont understand.

I know that i didnt do very well on the word list test. I cant tell what people are saying if im not facing them directly.

Did i pick the right hearing aids?

Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks so much.

[DanInSD]

I have a cookie bite and tinnitus (ringing) in my ears as well. My hearing aids mask enough of my tinnitus enough that it’s not what I’m focusing on. My experience is that you need to find an audiologist that you feel is listening to you and slowly improving your experience as you give them feedback. Everybody’s hearing is different and you need to choose the brand that sounds good to you. Not every adjustment will improve your hearing, sometimes you go backwards. Hopefully you go forward more often than backwards. It’s a journey to get them where you want them, and sometimes it take months of visits to the audiologist. It’s worth it.

I also recommend that you learn how to use the app on your phone. When I’m in difficult situations (a loud restaurant), I bring out my phone and start to play with the hearing aid settings. I’m very open to the person that I’m adjusting my hearing aids and even show them what I’m adjusting. You’ll be surprised what changes you can make that improve your hearing.

I personally have an audiologist and adjust my own hearing aids. I’m very technical and can discern between small adjustments. I take my laptop into different situations in my house and play with the different settings. For me it’s fun. For most it’s frustrating. Unfortunately, I think Costco locks their hearing aids so customers can’t program them themselves.

This forum is also great to learn from others. People are very generous with their time when you ask questions. Hang in there.

[garethjwells]

I’m another cookie biter with tinnitus. My hearing loss is genetic and while it surfaced in my 20s, looking back it was always there.

My hearing aids are also from Costco and have been very very pleased with mine. I’ve found Costco to be excellent for their aftercare and these were my first ‘privately bought’ hearing aids (I live in the U.K. where the National Health Service dispenses pretty good HAs, just not always on the ‘bleeding edge’ of technology).

I have a slightly older pair than yours, a discontinued line which was made for them by another major manufacturer (Sonova). If you find the Rexton HAs useful, then you made the right pick.

I’ve used hearing aids of various types for 20 odd years. For me, the effectiveness of the aids is just as much about the programming by the audiologist (and their understanding/experience in working with a cookie bite loss) as the amount of technology packed inside. I’d also say you need time to become accustomed to hearing more sound. Or even if you have HAs, I find a new pair takes time to get used to as the sound will be subtly different.

Worth looking into what other devices work with your hearing aids. Specifically remote microphone type devices. These are a game changer in noisy situations - my cookie bite takes out a lot of the ‘speech banana’ (the level of area of hearing where you’d expect to hear most people speak) so when I’m at work in busy meetings or at a restaurant etc, it helps keep me involved.

[Ruby]

Thank you for your kind response.

[Ruby]

Thank you also for your kind response.

[user1186]

Hi Ruby, I don’t have any experience with those specific hearing aids but my story is very similar to yours (although I don’t know your age). I’m a female in my 40s (also in Sydney) and I was first told I had cookie bite hearing loss when I was in my 20s. No one in my family has it. I definitely noticed how much I had been lip reading when people were wearing masks and in the last few years I have found it much harder to manage so I got fitted with hearing aids about 3 months ago. The first pair I trialled were Phonak but I didn’t love them. I then tried the Specsavers Elite which are rebranded Signia Pures. I am happy enough with these and will stick with them. I’ve found the audiologists at Specsavers very good and you can have unlimited adjustments. I like that they were $3k cheaper than the Phonak and SS has fixed prices which are readily available on their website. I don’t think anyone can really tell you if you’ve chosen the best hearing aids because it is so personal. For example I struggled with the hair noises with the Phonak Lumity. I also found them artificial sounding. The Pures I find much better but they still sound (and feel!) a little strange to me. It takes a long time to get used to HAs so you do have to be patient and allow your brain to learn to filter out the unimportant noise that you will be super aware of when you are suddenly hearing it for the first time. But you also do need to give the audiologist feedback so they can try and get you the best outcome possible. I have bad tinnitus and the HAs haven’t really improved it, but they help me hear over it and I do sometimes use the tinnitus masker (white noise) and find it quite relaxing.

For me it has been totally worth it getting HAs as I no longer drive people crazy asking what they said, I can follow people even when they are facing away and music sounds amazing! Best of luck with your journey!

I just had a look and it seems Rexton is also a rebranded Signia. So we may have the same device.

[Ruby]

Thankyou so much for getting back to me.