Can phone microphone be used instead of handsfree calling (HA mic) with Phonak hearing aids

Hearing Aids
#14

Phonak uses Handsfree Profile (HFP) and not Headset Profile for Bluetooth.
This means that the HA mics are always live.
I have found this annoying on Zoom meetings because I cannot mute my mic when I am not actually speaking. (Using the mute button in Zoom does nothing)

@Patpa Yes, you can change where your phone directs the audio. If you choose Phone then you activate the phone’s mic and earpiece in the usual way. I you choose HA’s then you go into Handsfree Mode with your HA speakers (receivers) and mics both live.

#15

That may be what Phonak calls it, but iOS reports it as a headset. I’ll add a screen capture or two from my iPhone to this post (eventually). Walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, looks like a duck… Since the hearing aids are functionally like a headset, the name used seems like a fine distinction. The only thing that might make a difference is the use of different amplification scenarios depending on what device type is detected. iOS has the hearing aids, headset, and headphone profiles, but I did not detect much of a difference in the quality of recorded output in Voice Memo until I switched to the Car Stereo profile as reported in my linked post above.

#16

When setting up Phonak HA’s in Target for streaming you have the option to attenuate or mute the mics. This includes streaming from a tablet, phone or music player.
However, once you start to make or receive a phone call Phonak puts you in Handsfree Protocol and enables the HA mics. In this mode,Target gives you the option to attenuate the mics but not to completely mute them.
As far as I know this applies to any phone. It certainly applies to my iPhone and my landline Gigaset phone with Bluetooth.

2 Likes
#17

A very important observation: the microphone on our hearing aids performs significantly worse when handling phone calls compared to even the cheapest built-in microphone on a mobile phone. Both in noise reduction and clarity, it falls short.

Phonak hearing aids have consistently used classic Bluetooth to connect to mobile phones, which does have a big marketing advantage by attracting users who want to connect to any Bluetooth-enabled device, such as phones, computers, and transmitters. However, this setup has limitations. With both Android and Apple devices, when using classic Bluetooth for calls, the system does not allow hearing aids to use the phone’s built-in microphone during a call. (Using MFI or ASHA protocols would allow using the phone’s built-in microphone, but currently, all Phonak products only support classic Bluetooth.)

Because Phonak only supports classic Bluetooth, phone calls use the hearing aids’ speakers for listening and their microphone for speaking. While using the hearing aid speakers is the best solution for users with hearing loss, the microphone quality is so poor (a limitation of hearing aids in general, regardless of brand) that it can often cause the person on the other end to struggle to understand. This can be very frustrating, especially when the other party may not realize they’re speaking with a hearing aid user. If you’re someone who relies on stable phone call quality, what seems like a convenient hands-free feature can actually become a big headache. From a user’s perspective, though it may seem less convenient, using the phone’s microphone actually offers the most stable call quality.

Since the release of the Marvel hearing aids, Phonak has not provided a solution that uses the phone’s built-in microphone. You can refer to the following article: Phonak Marvel: Nobody can hear me on the phone

While Phonak has made some improvements in call audio quality in the Paradise and Lumity models, it’s still not up to standard for stable use. It doesn’t compare to a phone’s built-in microphone or even a cheap wired earphone microphone. I’ve also suggested to Phonak’s audiologists that they consider a software setting to allow the use of the phone’s microphone or even provide an accessory for stable audio capture (such as Jabra’s phone clip accessory, for example): Phone Clip+ - Jabra Enhance

After five years, it seems Phonak hasn’t made much progress on this issue. Perhaps this flaw is not a priority for most Phonak users, and Phonak has instead focused its R&D efforts elsewhere.

Currently, the only potential solution may be if the new Sphere model supports LE audio, which might allow the phone’s built-in microphone to be used for calls.

Phonak’s products are excellent, but because of this flaw, I’m considering hearing aids from other major brands.

How does everyone else feel about Phonak’s performance on calls? Could it be that we overlook this flaw since we’re not on the other end of the call?

#18

Yes, I think my ignorance is showing. AI searches show that the Hearing Aid and Car Stereo device types probably both support HFP, A2DP, and AVRCP. I thought the difference between Hearing Aid and Car Stereo types might be that Hearing Aid only supports SBC encoding, whereas maybe Car Stereo is AAC-encoded. It’s said that AAC-encoded sound will sound louder with less noise because the higher bitrate and greater encoding efficiency lead to better sound. BUT Gemini says no Phonak hearing aid up through the Infinio line uses AAC encoding.

ChatGPT claims to know the difference between the protocols/processing used in the Hearing AId and Car Stereo device types. Here’s what it says:

ChatGPT:

What is different about the Phonak Infinio BT device type Car Stereo as opposed to the Phonak Infinio Device type Hearing Aid for streaming?

ChatGPT said:

Searched 3 sites


“Phonak Infinio BT device type Car Stereo vs Hearing Aid streaming”
bing.com

forum.hearingtracker.com
](Phonak Infinio Sphere 90 review)

hearingtracker.com
](Phonak Unveils Groundbreaking Infinio Hearing Aids and AI-Powered Audéo Sphere Infinio)

The Phonak Infinio Bluetooth devices, specifically the “Car Stereo” and “Hearing Aid” streaming modes, cater to different audio streaming environments to enhance user experience. When set to the “Car Stereo” device type, the hearing aid prioritizes audio as if it’s coming from a stereo system, offering richer bass and enhanced overall sound quality, which can make music and media sound fuller and more engaging. This setting emphasizes the dynamic range and might be more suited for environments with a lot of background noise or when high-quality sound is desired, such as listening to music while driving.

On the other hand, the “Hearing Aid” streaming mode focuses on clarity and intelligibility, particularly for speech. It emphasizes mid and high frequencies to make voices clearer, an ideal setting for phone calls or conversations in quieter environments. This device type is optimized for speech intelligibility rather than musical richness, so it might sound thinner but ensures speech remains clear and distinct.

Switching between these modes allows Infinio users to better adapt to different listening scenarios, maximizing either audio quality or speech clarity depending on the streaming needs. These settings are powered by Phonak’s advanced ERA chip, which manages sound quality and Bluetooth connectivity while also supporting DEEPSONIC AI processing for clearer speech in noisy settings​

Whatever the explanation, using the Car Stereo device type for phone calls and media streaming sounds A LOT better to me than the Hearing Aid device type. The end result is that the Hearing Aid protocol sounds thinner, noisier, less dynamic range, less stereo separation or spatiality, whereas a podcast listened to with the Car Stereo protocol is like WOW! :open_mouth:

My Phonak Sphere Infinio I90 vs Lumity L90 Shootout
Returning Phonak Infinio Sphere I90s
#19

@jim_lewis
Thanks for the further clarification you posted over here where it rather should be posted.

#20

I should note that my streaming setting in Target is Adaptive Bandwidth, not Fixed Bandwidth. Adaptive allows expanded bandwidth, when available. All my podcast observations were with downloaded content and my calling was done using high bandwidth Wi-Fi calling. None of the phone or media streaming was over a cellular data connection. Adaptive Bandwidth may allow me to max out on streaming audio quality with the Car Stereo device type classic BT connection setting on my iPhone 14 Pro Max running iOS 18.1.

1 Like
#21

Bit of speculation here, let me clarify (technical) reality

  • Phone Call is using HandsFree Profile (HFP), usually 8kHz audio bandwidth (wideband). Old systems were 4kHz only (HSP).
    It is a two-way connection, 1 channel up to the hearing aid, 1 channel down from hearing aid microphone to phone (therefore handsfree)

  • Audio Streaming such as Music using Advanced Audio Distribution Profile (A2DP), usually 22kHz audio bandwidth on Bluetooth side.
    It is a one-way connection stereo signal from phone up to the hearing aid

Note: this is only true for Sonova based technology, such as Phonak or Unitron, etc., as they use Classic Bluetooth. Other brands use solutions such as MFi or ASHA, which is upstream only and hence still uses the phone microphone and hence are not truly hands-free.

Now, to the question. Answer is “it depends”, sorry :slight_smile:
Some end devices allow to switch the Phonak hearing aid to headphone mode. Such as Windows Teams call for instance. Means the audio is played over A2DP, and the microphone of the laptop is used.
Some phones allow that too, others don’t. They will simply disable the call routing to the Hearing aid when you de-select “Calls” in the Bluetooth settings of your paired Phonak Hearing aid.

6 Likes
#22

Thank Michael_Phonak for the excellent explanation!
May I ask which mobile phones can smoothly use the built-in microphone during calls?
This feature is crucial for call stability, and if addressed,
I believe even more people would choose PHONAK products.
thanks again!
Jack

1 Like
#23

Thanks. But your explanation didn’t cover how the Car Stereo device type differs from the Hearing Aid device type. Car Stereo can be applied to both phone calls and media streaming, and, IMHO, markedly increases the audio quality of both types of streaming. Thanks if you have an e explanation for that phenomenon.

I don’t detect much difference between using the Hearing Aid device type and the Headphone device type in dictating to the Voice Memo app. I can use my HA mics in both modes to dictate, whereas since dictating should be media, not a phone call, according to your explanation, the HA mics should be off, but they’re not. And the quality of both recordings is nowhere near as good as the Car Stereo device type. The HA mics also work with that type, too.

Basically, it seems for iOS, that the Spheres take control of phone mic input and any app requiring a mic gets the HA input, not the phone mics. The audio quality changes markedly only when Car Streo device type is chosen in the phone settings for BT pairing connection type.

Your explanation did not take account that I am also using Adaptive Bandwidth, not Fixed Bandwidth, in streaming and what the quantitative differences might be there. Does that affect two-way streaming (both directions)?

(will correct any typos later)

#24

There’s been lots of interesting discussion. I’m still unclear if there’s a clear answer to the original question.

#25

A number of MFi hearing aids and selected Apple devices can use bidirectional streaming according to an Apple document: https://support.apple.com/en-us/106341

Near the end of the document between the list of hearing aids and Apple devices there is the following statement:

“MFi hearing devices marked with an asterisk (*) in the list above use bidirectional streaming, which allows you to talk hands-free. MFi hearing devices without an asterisk use unidirectional streaming.”

However, I typically use the phone microphone. A number of people (both normal hearing and aid users) I’ve spoken to using the hearing aid mics in my Oticon aids (currently Real 1) say my voice is more easily understood when I’m using the iPhone mic (in my case an old iPhone 12 mini with the current iOS version).

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#26

This is what I’ve found with using Oticon and Phonak. No one can hear me with Phonak but they can with Oticon and speaking into the iPhone Mic.

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#27

It’s also my experience that hands-free calls using HA mics deliver poor sound to the other end, especially if the HA wearer is in a noisy place. My theory is it’s because HA mics can’t use directionality to focus on the wearer’s voice. The mics are in a horizontal plane, so they can be set to be selective by azimuth (front-back and side-to-side), but not by elevation. So they can’t focus on the wearer’s voice which comes from below.

#28

OK, we agree that the HA mic’s are poor for phone calls and so we want to use the phone’s own mic’s. That means lifting the phone to your face to talk, so why not listen to the phone’s own earpiece speaker. You just need to switch to the Acoustic Phone program and forget all the Bluetooth stuff for phone calls.

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#29

I think there’s quite a few people that enjoy the handsfree calls, especially if they’re in a fairly quiet situation.

#30

I’d be interested to know how far back in the Phonak model line the Car Stereo device type is available for the classic BT connection device type and whether using it improves the handsfree call quality for older HA models and whether it’s a choice if using an Android phone.

#31

I have KS9 which is similar to Marvel. In my Samsung Galaxy S23 with Android 14 I have Headphones, Speaker or Others as my options.

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#32

Thanks Gilbert. Your explanation helps me a lot.

DaveL
Mississauga

#33

@MDB and others. I think you will find that when you have made a Bluetooth connection between your HA’s and your phone the options for “headphones”, “speaker”, “car audio”, “hearing aids” etc which are offered by your phone are not Bluetooth protocol options. They are adjustments to the “shape” of the sound in order to best suit the device that they are sending the sound to. Hence you may find one or the other of these options sounds better to you.
These options are really intended to be used when streaming music or movies from your phone and not necessarily for phone calls.
Phonak connects in HSP during phone calls and the HA mic’s are live and all the other controls associated with phone calls are activated. You can leave your phone in your pocket and control everything from the buttons on your HA’s
The Target software allows for the mic’s to be turned down during phone calls. Presumably this is to cut the background noise sent to your caller.

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