Familiar with and understand the DAC area.
Is it safe to assume the bulk of distortion is also a driver problem?
With drivers advertised for less than $30 seems to indicate there is plenty of room in the market for better drivers.
Not so much better: but more. If you want near perfect reproduction of sound between 1-4KHz, hearing aid receivers are fairly unbeatable. Wideband reproduction is another kettle of fish.
It’s all about peak resonance and sitting the correct crossover for the hi-pass/lo-pass filtering.
If you’ve got loads of spare volts (and amps) to play with you can ignore the power economy that hearing aids need to have. Multi transducer drivers are available now with 3-4 drivers that beautifully cover a wide output.
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This is all very intriguing! Yes, pitch can get shifted by the A2DP bluetooth codec - I have heard it, as have others. But it wavers the pitch up and down, just like a bad cassette player.
I can’t imagine a real time pitch shift persisting across the spectrum, other than that obvious ‘undersea’ conversion effect used by studios, because surely any shift would cause a voice to go on after the speaker has stopped, or anticipate their conclusion! 
I’m familiar with multi transducer ear buds which are huge compared to 60db HA drivers. Hopefully wideband drivers are on the manufacturers to do lists 
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Analog to Digital Converters (ADC) and Digital to Analog Converters (DAC) are complex and there are many variations. Some are linear and other non linear. I have no idea of which forms are used in mine or other hearing aids. As a former electronics designer I suspect they are most likely the circuitry involved in this constant pitch shift observed across my hearing spectrum.
Probably a compromise due to miniaturization for I have never observed this in other audio devices.
OK. Weighing in here HEAVY with my cinderblock ears …
YES! It is totally possible for an audiophile to be satisfied with streaming sound quality wearing aids. BUT! The music device matters.
I actually enjoy streaming music from ROON right thru my Samsung Flip-4 cell phone a LOT! It gives me portability and ease, so I can appreciate the music (classical, jazz, rock) while cleaning bathrooms, doing kitchen prep-work, ironing, etc., hands free!
A better listening experience is when I’m hooked up to an Astell Kern music player. I typically travel with that cludge (battery, cell phone, Astell Kern, blah blah).
Main thing is that with the Phonak Lumity Life aids, I’m appreciating better speech clarity AND pretty awesome music listening in the Music program (which removes reverb and increases dynamic range).
Even with my cinderblock ears, my hearing is incredibly nuanced, so I’ll hear the same changes in hi-fi my husband hears, but it’s on a different scale.
I wanted to link to this single discussion thread involving musicians and hearing aids. Pretty good! the whole site is informative for those of us who play or listen to music with hearing loss. Hopefully it will open to the one relevant thread.
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Thanks so much for your suggestion. I’ll give it a try!
DaveL
Toronto
Thanks so much!
I’ll give it a try!
I don’t have the Lumity HA’s. Paradise p90’s.
DaveL
Toronto
Questions:
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What kind of music are you listening to? (Rock, opera, orchestra, C&W, bluegrass, Indian classical, African, world?
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Are you streaming from, say, Spotify (or similar) or MP3 or copied CDs?
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Anyone listening to a good hi-fi system? (I don’t know what’s the current favorite of Stereophile or Absolute Audio, but I use olive Naim equipment.)
Weighing in here:
- I listen to rock, pop/vocal, jazz, classical, folk, country, world, disco, techno, Indian, sufi
- We have a home music server set up on JRiver - hundreds of CDs there, some in high def format; externally, we’ve got ROON and Qobuz that I stream when on the move
- JRiver Media Center, dCS Vivaldi, pair of Vivids. I actually enjoy NOT streaming music when I have my Phonak Lumity Life aids in the dedicated Music program.
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Gosh, so there’s a whole-body sub bass shaker product! Who knew? Thanks for posting that. Probably beyond my budget, but a potential man-shed project… a huge overcoat, stuffed with speaker units…
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might be interesting reading for some of you.
may have been posted before.
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Interesting. University of Western Ontario is in London Ontario. Strong postgrad program for hearing/audiologists. I was tested there due to exposure to noise at 3M and my hearing loss; regret I don’t have test results.
This is a post I added in 2022 reopening a chain from Nov 2020. Like many in the original chain music has always been a big part of my life (rock, R&B earlier on and now mostly smooth jazz), I wouldn’t be surprised if my hearing loss was mainly from all those rock concerts…
About a year and a half ago I was fitted with a pair of Phonak Paradies P90 after 3 years of a low to mid-range Signia model without bluetooth which were only fair for projected music (ie speakers) and even then only after a lot of equalizing at the source. Since the Phonak Paradise P90 supports multiple bluetooth connections I began streaming telephone calls and music through them and became much more focused on audio quality, both projected and streaming. During the trial stage I first tried open domes but eventually went for vented closed domes because they gave better overall performance including in music, especially bass.
I am a an obsessive tweaker, so after the initial fitting I downloaded the free Phonak Target fitting software used by audiologists (links are available in other forums here) and purchased a Noah Link wireless interface (around $150 on eBay). It took me a couple of months to learn and tweak all the settings (and there are a LOT) but the final result was a significant improvement both in overall hearing and specifically in music (projected and streamed). This Phonak model has an “AutoSense” feature that changes the audio configuration mode automatically according to the sound environment; one of the modes is “Music” and after much tweaking I got music samples to sound almost exactly the same in both the default “Calm” mode and in the “Music” mode so that when the h/a switches automatically into the music mode the change is seamless. The music mode can also be selected manually using the Phonak app.
Aside from the previous Signia I have not tried any other hearing aids so I can’t make any comparisons, here are my impressions of the Phonak Paradise P90 for music and phone calls.
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Projected music, in my case a mid-range TV soundbar, a mid-range stereo and the factory-standard music system in my car. After some moderate equalization at the source projected music at home and in the car sounds surprsingly good; highs are crisp, mid-range and speech are clear and not “brassy” and the bass is mellow and deep without getting boomy. The sound is very natural and does not feel at all “artificial”. In short for listening to projected music the tweaked Phonak P90’s are a joy.
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“Streamed” music by bluetooth, either from the tv (when my wife wants to sleep) or from my phone, mostly when I exercise or work in the yard. Overall the audio quality is comparable to a pair of $20 ear buds, listenable but they fall short of even mid-range earphones or buds, in particular in the bass which is barely there–even with heavy equalization. Highs and mid-range are OK but would definitely not qualify for audiophile approval. But since I don’t want bother with swapping out to better quality ear-buds each time just for exercise or yard work the hearing-aids are acceptable enough.
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Bluetooth phone calls: unlike music, telephony audio quality (both land-line and cellular), has never been very high so this was less of a consideration for me, all I require is clear and undistorted speech, generally the speech quality in phone calls on the Phonaks is quite acceptable and most importantly without distortion (although the audio quality can be influenced by the device on the other end) . On the other hand either the microphone or the software (or both) may not be doing such a good job because quite often I get complaints from people who say that they can’t hear me very well, but many others do not have a problem.
Your comments, opinions and experiences are welcome!
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Thankyou for the insights, EddyG. My Phonaks are near-obsolete M70 but, hey, this is modern Britain!
Following a very attentive fit by a young National Health audiologist who took on board my need for believable music, these give me very good wide-range rendering from live and hi-fi speakers via the mics, and acceptable if slightly coarse-textured bluetooth. I’m puzzled your BT falls short in the bass, as it delivers me right down to 30 Hz, if I block the vents. Homage to Phonak for fitting such excellent transducers.
Reading your piece, I’m tempted to try your Target/Noah route for some ultimate fine-tuning, if the old M70s can take it, particularly to remove the last vestiges of speech-focused automation.
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The Marvel series was Phonak’s previous high-end line so I’m not surprised that after a customized fitting you are getting good audio quality with projected music. As I said for streaming music the audio quality of the P90’s is acceptable, but not great. I have tried blocking the vents in order to boost the base but I find that it noticably blocks midrange and treble; unfortunately it seems that there are no easy answers. To my mind this is a design issue which needs to be addressed by the Phonak engineers.
PS if and when you decide to go the Noah/Target route make sure that the M70’s are compatible with the software (now in version 8+)
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Thankyou, eddyG. Glad to be alerted to a possible obstacle to fine-tuning a good but ancient aid!
Hope you can get your lows/mids/highs reconciled.
The M series is compatable.
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Target version 7 as well no problem.
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